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Nazi Constantine

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dogpoet    431

Those boots are definitely a thing now, then.

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dogpoet    431

Indeed. Looks like Zatanna is winning that boot-off, though...

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oh god...it looks like the one from constantine:The Hellblazer

 

but having taken a read myself...he was apparantly a double agent/undercover for whatever reason. Judging by what happens next issue,it makes sense that he would actually do that.

guess they didn't look twice cuz he fit their tall.blonde hair,blue eyes ideal.

have to wonder how long he was acting as an agent though?

can he use any of their weapons? can he throw down.

 

also you can NOT tell me this isn't cute. It's wrong,but it's cute

 

tumblr_nuf3hryC761rxle5co1_1280.png

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dogpoet    431

"The free food and sex out here is great, but I'm going back to the laboratory: I'm gasping for a fag..."

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i am,however,curious to know how she knows him in this universe though.will be reading on--not just cuz bunny constantine,but i am a sucker for dc elseworlds stories

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dogpoet    431

That looks a lot more fun than I'd expected. I may have to see if there's a collection of it.

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Christian    728

Unless he subscribed to the occult school of Ariosophy though, he'd have been sent to the concentration camps or exiled, since all other forms of occultism were persecuted in Nazi Germany.

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dogpoet    431

Hasn't a lot of what Goodrich-Clark had to say about that been questioned by other historians with an interest in occult esoteria?

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Christian    728

Which part are you referring to there? The influence of Ariosophy on Nazism, or the persecution of other occult orders?

 

The persecution of other occult orders is known to be accurate. Freemasons were one of the largest number of inmates in concentration camps. The Nazis attempted to assassinate Rudolf Steiner, but he had fled before they arrived with as much of his work as possible, and then they burned the remainder of his works. Theosophical societies were all banned by law in, I believe, 1937. Most theosophists left Germany at that time, although some remained. Theosophists who opposed the passing of that law were jailed. The Nazis wanted nothing to do with Crowley and his libertinism, and any German people with known associations with Crowley were ordered to be arrested. Of course, any orders based around Kabbalism would have been outlawed, due to its origins and relations with Judaism. Different Rosicrucianism-related order's members were killed when the Nazis invaded France. For its part, the fascists exiled Crowley from Italy.

 

If you meant the other part, I think he got a lot of his information from Morning of the Magicians, of which the historical accuracy of such has been called in to question quite often.

On that account, I have heard that Franz List, who is usually pointed to as the most prominent Ariosophist, was considered by Hitler to be nonsense, and members of Ariosophy were, pretty much, told to shut up by the authorities. I've also heard that a lot of these Aryan cults did help in the early formation of the national Socialist movement though.

They taught that the goals of utopian Socialism were worth pursuing, but that they couldn't be accomplished until the "end of history", when the bloodlines had been purified, and there was only the pure Aryan race left. At that time, the ideals of "liberty, fraternity, and equality" could be adopted. Which is quite compatible with Nazi beliefs.

 

Whoa! What happened to my font? I can't fix it now!

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dogpoet    431

I was thinking more of the latter, Christian. I've always found the assumption that the rise of National Socialism and all of its terrible consequences can be blamed mostly on one group of occultniks assuming seniority over every other occult secret society in Germany deeply pathetic and unconvincing. Most other occult historians besides Goodrich-Clark seem to agree with me. The Occult Roots of Nazism seems to be one of those books like The Origin Of Consciousness In The Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind or Worlds In Collision that's mostly devoted to an intriguing theory without a scrap of evidence to back it up any.

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Christian    728

It seems to be that occultists like to postulate this idea that the world is run by secret lodges of white magicians and secret lodges of black magicians, with the two sides vying for control of human history. The writer, as an occultist, like to pretend that he's taking the side of the "good guys" in history (based on whatever his own beliefs happen to be), and that he's part of the struggle to save humanity from the evil black magicians. By creating a scenario where that was the case in World War II, with the Nazis representing a form of black magical order, it helps promote this belief in how history is shaped.

 

I agree that the idea of Nazism being all based in the occult is highly overestimating the situation, but I don't disagree that certain occult orders which were based in the Aryan race as a superior race whose mission was to cleanse the world for the sake of the deities had a role in the early national Socialist movement, before Hitler rose to power. It's also documented that members of Ariosophist orders were early members of the nascent national Socialist movement, and that some of the ideas proposed by Franz List, with his racial and cultural form of occultism, were very much compatible with Nazism. Of course, there were lots of other elements involved also.

Hitler, and most of his Nazi high command, seemed more concerned with materialist conceptions of history.

Himmler, on the other hand, was the guy who was really interested in the occult.

 

Goodrich-Clarke is at least more sensible with his theories than these religious Right types who like to lump together all forms of occultism as the exact same thing. So, Freemasons, the Golden Dawn, Anthroposophy, the Theosophical Society...they were all behind the Nazis! That's what the Nazis were....a bunch of homosexual occultists who worshipped Karl Marx! It's so insulting, considering that homosexual people, Communists, and members of different occult orders were all sent to concentration camps.

A simple reading of Nazi propaganda would show that the Nazis really conflated Jewish, Mason, and Communist in to one big conspiracy theory, that there was a conspiracy by the two groups to control the world, and that both are the creation of the "International Zionist Conspiracy".

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dogpoet    431

Is the notion that the Aryan race had to cleanse the world of inferior subhumans something that could only have fed into the Nazis from Ariosophy, though? That's an idea that seems to have been very much in the air during the 'twenties and 'thirties, and had pondlife trying to dignify and justify it with all sorts of nonsense besides the mystical stuff.

 

As for the religious right, aren't they more convinced that the Illuminati are behind everything these days? (Like that prick Mark Dice?) That said, I have always loved that Hitler and Himmler were trying to lump jews and communists together at a point in history where Stalin had been working on his own programme of pogroms. He obviously didn't get the memo that zionists and communists were supposed to be working together to overthrow the western world...

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Christian    728

Yeah, well, it's not like conspiracy theorists always make the most sense. Hence, the fact that the Freemasons were behind the Nazis, when the Freemasons were all put in concentration camps.

The "Illuminati" conspiracies usually involve Freemasons (and Knights Templar), usually with people not being able to discern a difference between the two. It's more palatable today to defame Masons rather than Jewish people, but there's always the hint that the real force behind Freemasonry and the Illuminati is probably Jewish, maybe with space aliens above them on the hierarchy too.

Most of the modern Right-Wing conspiracy theorists are still regurgitating the same tired conspiracies that the Catholic Church was promoting during the Reformation.

 

You seem to miss my point that we are pretty much in agreement about the whole Ariosophy thing. I'm not saying that an occult order was behind the creation of the national Socialists, I'm saying that the two were totally compatible, and there's no reason to think that Ariosophists weren't involved early in the national Socialist movement, even if when Hitler rose to power he wasn't directly influenced by Ariosophy.

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dogpoet    431

I think the "best" conspiracy theory I've seen lately is a book explaining that the Illuminati are running hip hop for the New World Order's benefit, and yeah, a lot of that does seem to be very familiar looking nonsense indeed. Apparently the occasional occult symbol in the album art is proof that somebody is a stooge of the ZOG. Presumably all of the antisemitic blathering some of these rappers come out with is just a bluff to hide who they're really working for...

 

Fair enough about the Ariosophists.

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Christian    728

Lyndon Laroushe (I'm not sure if that's how you spell his name) started the "rapper" conspiracy back in the 1970s. The guy started out claiming to be a Socialist, but promoted these different anti-Masonic/anti-Semitic theories that alienated him, and then later said that he couldn't deal with the "culture war" that the Left was helping furthering against the :"West", and how they had fallen in to the conspiracy, unwittingly. Later, he started funding different Right libertarian groups, which suddenly started to promote all these neo-Nazi conspiracy theories. It seems that the guy was always a crypto-fascist.

Anyway, his big conspiracy when he broke with the Left (as if he was ever really part of the Left, rather than trying to recruit working class people to the far Right, a typical fascist tactic) was that rap music was created by the Freemasons to undermine white culture.

It was hilarious. A bunch of old white guys wearing their little skirt things coming up with these lyrics and dancing around in their temples....I can picture it in my head. It always makes me laugh. Then, going on to teach African-American people how to perform like that. "No. No. You have to sound hipper. Here, try it like this!".

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oh lord,who beleives this??! As a black person ,a black american ,i can tell you the origins of hip hop were mostly in philadelphia PA ,and New York--and had Jamaican influence believe it or not.Puerto Ricans were in on it too .This started in the late 70's-early 80's...rap was around before hip hop andthe two are NOT synonymous--case in point Lauryn Hill and Mary J. Blige who often sing to hip hop songs,and Beyonce back in her early days (this shit she does now is a travesty.She is talented but...she use to be better)not to mention harmonizing which was a thong with Nate Dog and some others back in the day (the 90's--u guys probably don't even know wtf i'm talkin; bout').In the 80's we had groups like African Bombata who were electronic-hip hop and were awesome,then we had Beastie Boys and Run DMC with rock/hip hop crossovers and rap metal is a thing....and that's mostly white people.

 

so...strange old white dudes in skirts..that's funny.

 

for the record,rappers and black people in general do a lot of spoofing and stealth trolling to white people,especially with the illumani thing...good luck trynna figure out what's real and what's not.

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It seems to be that occultists like to postulate this idea that the world is run by secret lodges of white magicians and secret lodges of black magicians, with the two sides vying for control of human history. The writer, as an occultist, like to pretend that he's taking the side of the "good guys" in history (based on whatever his own beliefs happen to be), and that he's part of the struggle to save humanity from the evil black magicians. By creating a scenario where that was the case in World War II, with the Nazis representing a form of black magical order, it helps promote this belief in how history is shaped.

 

I agree that the idea of Nazism being all based in the occult is highly overestimating the situation, but I don't disagree that certain occult orders which were based in the Aryan race as a superior race whose mission was to cleanse the world for the sake of the deities had a role in the early national Socialist movement, before Hitler rose to power. It's also documented that members of Ariosophist orders were early members of the nascent national Socialist movement, and that some of the ideas proposed by Franz List, with his racial and cultural form of occultism, were very much compatible with Nazism. Of course, there were lots of other elements involved also.

Hitler, and most of his Nazi high command, seemed more concerned with materialist conceptions of history.

Himmler, on the other hand, was the guy who was really interested in the occult.

 

Goodrich-Clarke is at least more sensible with his theories than these religious Right types who like to lump together all forms of occultism as the exact same thing. So, Freemasons, the Golden Dawn, Anthroposophy, the Theosophical Society...they were all behind the Nazis! That's what the Nazis were....a bunch of homosexual occultists who worshipped Karl Marx! It's so insulting, considering that homosexual people, Communists, and members of different occult orders were all sent to concentration camps.

A simple reading of Nazi propaganda would show that the Nazis really conflated Jewish, Mason, and Communist in to one big conspiracy theory, that there was a conspiracy by the two groups to control the world, and that both are the creation of the "International Zionist Conspiracy".

 

as a forer occultist---i can assure the world is in fact run by power and money=power.

 

it;s just that some of those people turn to occult to help get in and shift things in their favor.Actual black magicans are quite rare- most people do the cutesy 'white magic' thing,neutral psychics,or they do like Constantine and dabble in both.it is noted,however,that many these people are NOT naturally gifted like Constantine and a large number of ghost hunters/occult detectives.psychics are fakes,or hobbyists who have lives and day jobs and often come up empty. once sat on a bench during a ghost hunt to see what would happen--i knew the place wasn't haunted (some people can sense these things though I have been out f the loop lately--but nobody was gonna listen to a sixteen year old goth from the ghetto?

 

far as the national socialist party,it was largely attribute dto the falout of WW1 and the taxing stipulations put on Germany afterwards.The people were desperate and Eugenics and anto-semitism was already a thing,pre-hitler.Been around since colonialism and was prevalent during slavery.Was use dto justify oppression.

 

on a fun note,I bet conjob just had to show his blonde haired ,blue eyes self and and say Heil Hitler; casta few stealth spells and got in.

 

also--these guys ain't got shit on HYDRA ....I'll just let that simmer

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Christian    728

I'm very much involved in the occult, but I don't buy in to the occult secret societies and all their little games and myths. Basically, most occultists want to make themselves feel more powerful, that they can really change and affect the world. Rather than the fact that most occult orders were simply an aspect of a wider counter-culture and made up of outsiders, who had a hard time fitting in with the wider society. That's what occultism means to me, it's something individual and personal.

 

Saying that, there are certainly people involved with the Freemasons who do have a lot of power, and some of them are involved in some quite shady things. I don't think that the Freemasons are a secret conspiracy with the power to control the world, however, there are people in positions of power who are involved with secret societies. Secret Brotherhoods are a good way to meet and make connections with other power players. They look out for each other.

If you don't think there's anything to conspiracy theories, however, look no further than the P2 Masonic Lodge in Italy. It was very much involved with pro-fascist forces and set up a conspiracy to target the far Left in Italy, with the eventual goal of the suppression of all unions on behalf of industrialists. They had far reaching ties, including neo-fascist forces operating in Latin America at the time and the CIA. One of their high-ranking members was even Berlusconi, who later became PM of Italy.

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dogpoet    431

Basically, most occultists want to make themselves feel more powerful, that they can really change and affect the world. Rather than the fact that most occult orders were simply an aspect of a wider counter-culture and made up of outsiders, who had a hard time fitting in with the wider society. That's what occultism means to me, it's something individual and personal.

Sadly, any set up that encourages guruism lends itself towards that. "Simon" likes to argue that this is the main reason his Necronomicon is so despised by ritual magicians, doesn't he? A magical system that you can quietly work through on your own, without having to get some mad old fart to initiate you into their temple is a threat to the guru system. The same claims are made for against chaos magic in general (Grant Morrison, iirc, has a good line on this) and the various books aimed at the solitary Wiccan, which latter are a source of contention for idiots who think that anybody who isn't working as part of a coven identical to theirs using the same book of shadows isn't really a proper witch at all.

 

for the record,rappers and black people in general do a lot of spoofing and stealth trolling to white people,especially with the illumani thing...good luck trynna figure out what's real and what's not.

I think there was a lot of debate back in the '70s about how serious Peter Tosh was about his tendency to come out with a lot of Yakub talk, wasn't there?

(And on the subject of the '70s, aren't the Last Poets and Gil Scott Heron seen as progenitors of rap as well as the Talkover stuff?)

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