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Ranja

Hoping Rebirth John won't be a fairy

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Ranja    0

I'm really hoping that the Rebirth John Constantine will be getting away from the Fairy persona that they have been forcing on us in the recent incarnation. Now, I'm well aware that this idea will infuriate lots of the left-leaning herd-mentality comic book readers (I've never understood why so many fall in that category, but John hasn't simply been portrayed as gay in the recent issues. He's been portrayed as a feminine fairy. His sheepish grins at his obviously-top boyfriend. His adorably cuddly comments that are made in reference to him. It's ridiculous and very non-Constantine. If the clannish need for diversity insists that he be gay, then at least make him the punk-rock style gay that we'd be expecting from a persona like his. John would never be a Bottom.

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Christian    728

It's funny that you use "herd mentality" to refer to some comic book readers, when your own herd mentality is forcing you to see the world through a heterosexual majority view-point. Does the idea of someone sticking their big, heaving cock up another man's luscious derriere offend you? Does it disturb you, the thought of cum dripping off of a man's toned ass cheeks? Well, get over it!

Also, John was never portrayed as a bottom. He was still very much a dominant personality.

It's routinely agreed by us mostly Left-leaning sheeple on this Forum that the new series was a failure. John's sexuality had very little do with that massive failing, as the series could have worked, had other little concepts that make up a story, like interesting plotting and better characterization been used.

This whole duality of "the only good Hellblazer must be a bisexual" versus "Hellblazer can never be good unless he only fucks women" mentality wears thin.

I'm sure you are just a troll, trying to get a rise out of all us Left-leaning conformists, who can only accept something that is different from the status quo, socially enforced concept of the "norm".

Personally, I hope that John will be a furry after the Rebirth.

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I mean, it was mentioned every once in a while in the original Hellblazer series that John is bi , but it wasn't often rubbed directly into your fucking face like this recent series apparently did ( haven't gotten around to reading it yet )

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Gwilym    330

Are we meant to respond? This seems less a conversation starter than a pronouncement

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Christian    728

It was mentioned once in the original Hellblazer series. This was not the original HB series, it was an alternate version. Really, the authors were able to do what they wanted with the character, since it was not in the original continuity.

I wouldn't say it was rubbed in our faces, anymore than I would say that "John is in a relationship" was rubbed in our faces by Garth Ennis with Kit.

The authors chose to revolve most of the ongoing plot of the series around the fact that John was interested in a guy named Oliver The consequences of Oliver getting involved with John became the reason for the series. The series wasn't good, but it wasn't due to John being bisexual. Shoddy, uninteresting plotting and writing that was less than engaging were two major faults. John's characterization was also poorly done. Remove the sexuality, and the series still wasn't going to work.

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Ranja    0

Wow, Christian! That will teach me for having an opinion that differs from yours!

 

I like how it is permitted to dislike everything about the new series except for the fact that the writer turned John into a sheepishly-smiling sub. How dare I dislike that part!!!!! Cum dripping down asscheeks!!!! Luscious dick up ass!!!! Did it make you hard when you wrote that? It seems to me like you're much more fixated on homosexuality in general than I am on the characterization of John's bending over for a big bear.

 

And I love that I'm a troll because I'm saying something that you disagree with. But thank you for presenting us all with a great depiction of the angry closed-minded comic book nerd.

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Christian    728

Oh yeah.....terms like "herd mentality" and "fairy" certainly aren't aggressive terms. Those are all perfectly rational ways to present your opinion, in a non-argumentative way, right?

You join this Forum and decide to act like someone with a chip on their shoulder, instead of acting politely.

You are absolutely entitled to your opinion of John Constantine. You are entitled to not liking that the character is presented in a certain way. However, your critique boiled down to one point...."Gee, I just don't like this dude because he's, like, gay!". That's a really immature attitude, which I'd expect from a high school student. You should really find ways to present yourself where you don't come across as an asshole. Then, you'll receive a more nuanced response to your opinions.

 

Usually a public forum includes room for debate. Presenting your opinion does not make you exempt from others who disagree with your opinion, even if you decide to start a topic which is a statement rather than an opening for question and thought. That's the wonder of free speech! You can come here and say your views about "queers" and then someone else can come along and give their opinion, which is that you're presenting yourself like a fool, while thinking you are so "cool".

 

Sorry, your Freudian skills are really lacking as well. I am heterosexual. I could care less what is the sexuality of anyone. It's your close-minded view of the world which I am challenging. Just because I like women doesn't mean that I see a problem with anyone else liking anything else....which runs the gamut from same sex, every sex, animals, or the person's own relatives. Plurality and difference are not anything that I find a threat to my own individuality.

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Ranja    0

My God, Christian. You really do have a mind as narrow as anus, don't you?

 

Read my comment again and then tell me that my issue was that he was gay. I actually made it quite clear that it was the type of gay he was. But you probably didn't even hear that in your mind, did you? You just saw "Criticism of a homosexual character portrayal" and then "FURY!!!!!!" There's nothing wrong with being argumentative, Christian. But don't make your argument sound like simplistic nonsense that could be churned out by a machine. I mean, jesus, when I wrote that comment I knew that somebody was going to regurgitate some bullshit that they have been trained to regurgitate.

 

Okay . . . but enough of that. Let's try rising above what seems to be your normal type of discussion. Let me ask you this - - - could I be unhappy if Luke Cage were portrayed as a Gangsta Nigga? Can I dislike Zatanna if she were portrayed as a nagging bitch? Would having these opinions make me racist or misogynistic? I don't think so. And so why are you furious that I would be unhappy that John is being portrayed as a submissive fairy?

 

But I'm wasting my time, aren't i? Onward, Christian Soldier!

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Demon Chas08    295

It was mentioned once in the original Hellblazer series. This was not the original HB series, it was an alternate version. Really, the authors were able to do what they wanted with the character, since it was not in the original continuity.

I wouldn't say it was rubbed in our faces, anymore than I would say that "John is in a relationship" was rubbed in our faces by Garth Ennis with Kit.

The authors chose to revolve most of the ongoing plot of the series around the fact that John was interested in a guy named Oliver The consequences of Oliver getting involved with John became the reason for the series. The series wasn't good, but it wasn't due to John being bisexual. Shoddy, uninteresting plotting and writing that was less than engaging were two major faults. John's characterization was also poorly done. Remove the sexuality, and the series still wasn't going to work.

 

This

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Gwilym    330

If you've ever wondered whether or not this forum is on the internet, this thread provides the clearest (and perhaps only) evidence so far

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Ranja    0

What does that mean, Gwilym? Because you get differing viewpoints and people like Christian who do their best to smash those viewpoints with personal attacks and insults?

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Gwilym    330

Differing opinions are nothing new. I know you won't agree about that, since it goes against the hive-mind persecution theme you've for some reason decided to run with, but those differing opinions are the whole reason this message board works, and includes actual conversations.

 

I'm talking about the flecks of self-righteous spittle flying all over the place. Those are new.

 

I'm sure you've parsed some kind of of personal insult from my words already, so I'll just say it: you're being utterly vile. Some of my best friends are cringe-inducingly homophobic (I know you've denied this part, but stay tuned; there's a payoff coming), but few of them would be clueless enough to wander into a social gathering and twice use a gay slur (there it is) in their opening sentences before patting themselves on the back for how brave they were to do so. And if they genuinely wanted to start a discussion, they probably wouldn't make bizarre blanket statements about anyone who disagrees with them being some kind of brainwashed leftist something-or-other. That's how you start a fight, not a conversation.

 

Anyway, just to prove that I can do pedantic nitpickery if I absolutely have to: "the clannish need for diversity" is a nonsense term. It's a paradox, and not the good kind. You might as well refer to "pro-immigration xenophobia" or "fascist anarchy."

 

I'd rather you didn't, though.

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Ranja    0

You actually are right, Gwilym. In my opening sentences, I made comments about comic book readers that were uncalled for assumptions and predictions of what I would soon be encountering for bringing up an issue that nobody seems to want to discuss (not the gayness, but the outright fairyness). I suppose that was less than classy of me. I had come to this forum to put forth this idea because, in my circle, I'm the only person who knows John Constantine - and I was curious to see if anybody else felt that way. So yes, it may have been wrong of me to immediately insult the people who I predicted I'd meet but who I hadn't met yet.

 

BUT then Christian comes out and . . . . holy god . . . what a tremendous Comic Book Fan stereotype he was. Left-leaning, closed-minded and filled with self-righteous anger. So I can't feel THAT bad about making that prediction.

 

But on the topic that neither of you seem interested in (on account of the self-righteous anger) - there is nothing wrong with having disdain for one type of a social group. Hate rednecks? Laugh at nerdy Chinese guys? Misogynistic Muslims? Fine. Those are annoying members of certain social groups. So why am I "homophobic" for not wanting one of my favorite characters to be portrayed as a fairy? Hell, there are gay people who dislike fairies. But your world isn't big enough to get that.

 

And I'd explain why the clannish need for diversity isn't a nonsense term, but there's no point. I met plenty of people like you back when I actually went to comic book stores. You're dicks and you're not people to have discussions with.

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Gwilym    330

I just cried myself to sleep, so I wouldn't be able to respond anyhow

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dogpoet    430

Comics fans are left leaning?

Who the fuck buys Cerebrus, then?

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Christian    728

Me, Dog! It was me all along!

 

I do think comic readers do tend to lean to the Left, however, it's probably something of a stereotype.

Comics do tend to attract more Left-Wing creators, moreso than other fields, I'd say (at least since the 1970s).

 

however, I do see that Conversion therapy comes up as the first choice when you do a Google search for "Straight to"...

Which may help explain this thread.

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dogpoet    430

Maybe.

:tongue:

I can think of plenty of right leaning (in fact, damn near the holocaust denyin', free market enshrinin', jew hatin', gay bashin' handout expectin' "libertarian" Neocon whore level of the current Republican party)* comics creators though. Apart from the half decent ones like Sim and Ditko, there's fucktards like Dixon and his closet case mate Smith as well, aren't there?

 

*(Showing my great age by referencing a Nirvana t shirt from before the guy used buckshot to clear his sinuses...)

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okay---so 2 topics to cover

1)leftist politics and comic readers and 2)Johny constantine being queer/bottom

-keep in mind ,I am black,female,non-heterosexual and leaning left so i have a unique perspective

Comics and leftism-

-I think a lot of comic readers of this era wanna be leftist--but the level of sexism and racism that exists in the American comics indicate elsewise.I think maybe some are "left center" at heart as we know the core audience is straight white males that can actually afford to buy them.As such,people have grown up reading comics for straight white males,by straight white males,about straight white males[i am not in anyway slandering the majority of straight white males I know are on this board,but there is a certain power to this status].Thius while many people claim to be 'leftist' the blatant sexism [which has been thank good toned down since the New '10's] undercover racism [wally west being a black kid from questionable background--that was some bullshit--oh so now he black,he gotta have problems? Fandom liked to assume white Wally had issues,but damn--why confirm it with black Wally?Damn!And then had Barry play 'mighty whitey'NOPE] .

 

Anyway,the main audience have at time protested to race changes or adding characters of other races and are comfortable with white men as the main points and characters of their storylines and their white world--also the fact that the main heroes [looking at DCU ] like Batman and Superman-upper eschelon white people who only know other white people [for the most part,there are exceptions].Really beyond Amanda Waller and possibly Renee Montoya,and Damian Wayne [mixed] ,and Victor Stone--what important non-whites exist in DCU who are NOT c-listers on down?

 

Leftist? Nah...too comfortable with the status quo to be leftist.Left-center,thank you.

 

Marvel is another story though.

 

Marvel's racial/gender diversity blended much better.Examples like all them female Miss/captain marvesl [only one of said women bein white],Rhodey had always been the number one person in tony's life and is with the military ,not some thug or anything,Marvel even delves into racism more and have A and B-list characters who are females/different ethnicities .Emma Frost,often times defacto leader of The X-men,Storm,aka Ororo Monroe had been A-lister from back in the day black AND female.War Machine [b-lister],Sam Wilson [A-list,in fact he is captain america now and had always been not just steve's partner but HIS FRIEND.Yes he talks to sam wilson outta costume,steve sam and bucky like to hang sometimes--there was a time along time ago when some ol' dumb shit happened,but for the most part--it was cool --also see the Captain america sagas--black captain america and Patriot a descendant of his].

 

In the case of DC vs Marvel? DC Left-Center and Marvel actually leaning toward the leftism that is alleged [also,higher quotient of LGBT and specifically BISEXUAL characters than DCU last I checked ,especially dudes,definately more queer dudes---off the top of my headnon- het characters- most of the Young Avengers lineup ,and then we have Richter and Shatterstar Daken,Mystique,Spiderwoman and this is not naming all the 'maybe but not confirmed' characters and the Ultimate universe

 

so marvel likely truly leaning left

 

-Then we have Image and Indie comics that run the gammut of whatever they want ,definately leftist territory.

 

However,here's the kicker

 

Because it is more socially acceptable state side to lean left,alot of people "pretend" to be leftist when they are center or DL right-wingers.

 

Yup,I said it.

 

It's like how the KKK are so obssessed with hiding their identities and how sexist pigs tend to be internet thugs or live in mediums like COMICS and ACTION MOVIES where they think women don't tread.Same for certain industries.But your actions tell all and some comic fans are not leftist.

Also,it's a bit more socially aceptable to lean left here stateside--except trump supporters.

 

The thing is,alot of people don't wanna admit to being right wing or centered--so yes comic readers tend to claim to be leftist because it's a left scene--politics can go in trends.

 

=========================================================

 

Now "Queer Constantine"

 

-And constantine being queer and a bottom.Two things.1? not the first time he has been a bottom-i am more at least a thousand percent sure he was the bottom between him and nick necro [which i think that bothered people aLOT on a subliminal level.This was the first time john constantine was pretty much known to have genuinely been running with some dude and not running a long con].Also with the azarello thing,john may have been kicking manner's ass--but john visted an SM club and was letting people put their paws on him which essentially 'bottom' is more pasive in that culture.If a guy ties you up and slaps you and demands you give him the D--you are still his bottom.Because John is queer and into S&M his definition is different than what yours may be.

 

-Essentially John would likely be bottom/switch,likely switching by partners or he can adopt the life style of a good handful of bi-guys who would bang women but often/always bottom to men sexually which is surprisingly normal,like the ones who love women but love givin out BJ's.

 

This fear of John Constantine loving cock ,and being a bottom comes from descrimination against the D-takers in the gay community.Men who recieve are seen as 'lesser' than the givers,some of you nutbox closet cases even thinking it's not gay if you don't take the D,which is rediculous--a top would be more of a homo or just sexually ambiguous for reasons i'm not explaining now.

 

Amd do you know where the hatred of bottoms come from !

 

That's right kids,sexism!

 

Penetrative intercourse=feminine=weak.

 

Fans of conjob can't conceive that this masculine,badass,chain-smokin' ,half drunkard,badass ,mofo who got 'the bitches' was probably sucking the sausage in a bathroom stall somewhere at some point in his life,giving out and recieving handjobs and likely enjoys getting his back blown out ,while tied to a bedpost.That is just dis-servicing John Constantine ,slandering him for his sexuality ,being gay straight or otherwise and I do not support anyone who thinks in such a close minded manner.Big thumbs down for you Ranja. I have nothing personal at stake here,but you gotta take this L

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Gwilym    330

I wasn't wild about this thread continuing, since it could easily turn into trash-talking someone who isn't here, but I'm glad it was you doing it, LC. It's possible that it's as simple as you not being a straight white male, but your angles on things are always interesting. Plus you write long posts so it's kind of a feast.

 

I also think you've also found a point of agreement: the idea that a lot of left-leaning is bogus, and just for show. This is definitely true, and it's just as definitely the reason for anti-left sentiment. When people rail against political correctness, it's usually because they find it dishonest, and a lot of the time it is.

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I wasn't wild about this thread continuing, since it could easily turn into trash-talking someone who isn't here, but I'm glad it was you doing it, LC. It's possible that it's as simple as you not being a straight white male, but your angles on things are always interesting. Plus you write long posts so it's kind of a feast.

 

I also think you've also found a point of agreement: the idea that a lot of left-leaning is bogus, and just for show. This is definitely true, and it's just as definitely the reason for anti-left sentiment. When people rail against political correctness, it's usually because they find it dishonest, and a lot of the time it is.

 

thank you and glad we see eye to eye.it's like the false leftist thing is like the elephant in the room no one talks about,it is in fact a very real thing.

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Christian    728

I think we have to remember what the Left was originally meant to be about, which was economic issues. Class issues and anti-war were the original hallmarks of the Left.

The focus on equality...your personal wealth shouldn't give you a priveleged position...opened the door for equality in other areas to be considered Left-Wing issues, such as race or gender or sexual orientation.

However, I'd say that Idenitity Politics has hijacked the Left. In place of equality for all people, political correctness has taken the place of issues which were the original purpose of the Left....class and anti-war.

I don't believe that issues like racism or sexism should be the sole purview of the Left. I'm sad that these issues have become so politicized. God created all people, so it's sickening to see people on the Right, which is supposed to be the purview of organized religion (another thing I find sad), treating people differently based on race.

I have little doubt that both sides of the Official political parties have come to use these issues to divide the masses, and distract people from the elite. That the Official Left (neoliberals, Democrats in the US) appeal to poltically correct language and the right to abortion as a way to get votes, just as much as the Right panders to organized religion and anti-immigration to manipulate the masses. Not that a woman's right to an abortion isn't an important issue, mind.

Meanwhile, corporations gain ever more power, while millions are fed to the war machine.

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I think we have to remember what the Left was originally meant to be about, which was economic issues. Class issues and anti-war were the original hallmarks of the Left.

The focus on equality...your personal wealth shouldn't give you a priveleged position...opened the door for equality in other areas to be considered Left-Wing issues, such as race or gender or sexual orientation.

However, I'd say that Idenitity Politics has hijacked the Left. In place of equality for all people, political correctness has taken the place of issues which were the original purpose of the Left....class and anti-war.

I don't believe that issues like racism or sexism should be the sole purview of the Left. I'm sad that these issues have become so politicized. God created all people, so it's sickening to see people on the Right, which is supposed to be the purview of organized religion (another thing I find sad), treating people differently based on race.

I have little doubt that both sides of the Official political parties have come to use these issues to divide the masses, and distract people from the elite. That the Official Left (neoliberals, Democrats in the US) appeal to poltically correct language and the right to abortion as a way to get votes, just as much as the Right panders to organized religion and anti-immigration to manipulate the masses. Not that a woman's right to an abortion isn't an important issue, mind.

Meanwhile, corporations gain ever more power, while millions are fed to the war machine.

 

Here's the thing--I'm gonna have to agree to disagree about the racism part.

 

over here in america ,race pays a large role in class.Essentially people of color were up until maybe 1990's second class citizens.We take pay cuts here for being non-Caucasian and for being females.There is also the fact that after World War 2 there was this mass hysteria to create suburabn sprawls and "the great white flight" and segreggated housing based on race.Race determines your life in america,how quickly or how easy or difficult it is to obtain ctatus and wealth. Same with sex--laws governing women we get lower pays,less promotions therefore affecting our ability to obtain a higher class,unless we marry out of class.

 

-Race has to be important because race is essential in maintaining social class in america.It goes back to slavery days with "overseer syndrome",which plagues our american police force and underclass white americans,particukarky in the south .But not just black people,but incidently whites,particularly whites of Irish American descent--they were undermined for the longest until around the post prohibition era.But due t them being held back for generations that is why they are most of the white underclass, and that is why people of color are underclassed and it is in effect today because money passes down by generation.

 

Here is how overseer syndrome works:Instead of helping poor whites,the upperclass turns them against everyone else so everyone stays poor ,them as well,and they get a handful of perks "for whiteness" ,that may or may not [usually don't help] end the cycle of poverty. Essentiall,The Rich [and mostly white] would do this-they have a whole loaf of bread to themselves,give a slice and a half to poor whites,a slice to blacks,half a slice to latinos and around that amount to everyone else. The lower class will be like "Why do I have one slice of bread?",and the wealthy whites sould say"well,we had to give them a slice too.If we didn't have to give it to them,you'd have more",which is bullshit because the wealthy [mostly white---mostly because they are all NOT white] are sitting here with damn near a whole loaf of bread. So yes,racism SHOULD be a core part of Left politics.

 

It aligns with classism and even poor american whites began to realize this at some point--the black panther party was destroyed because get this guys --it was NOT just about black people! It was about equaity for ALL. There weresupporters from all over the world,other races,whites,latinos asians,it was a humanity thing and not just a race thing , black vs white like people claim.

It's just in america,alot of our most powerful and revered rights activists states side were black people and they lead the way for other people to unite.If all the races unite in amercia,the underclass will overthrow the upperclass and that is a VERY dangerous thing.hat is simply what it is about,all about greed.

 

As for these "neo liberals",many are in fact racist and classist and hell,support war anyway,so yes,it has been somewhat diluted from what it was and the anti-war thing has mostly fallen off anyway in this 'age of terrorism'---which is a whole other discussion in itself.I am ironically one of the few liberals who is anti-war as war destroys lives and lines pockets.Most liberals are like "support the veterans",which I agree--but if you didn't go to war in the first place,these veterans would not have be suffering nor would their families,so there's that.

 

I do agree though ,that feminism should be in it's very own sphere and shouldn't even be political as it is.Feminism is more of a social issue than any thing as women have obtained for the most part,the rights of men.This is an issue of social norms and societal pressure,more so than actually political.Same with sexuality--though I agree same couples should be given the same legal rights as het couples.

 

 

[also -STOP lumping LGBT tgether as it implies we are this loving united front ,when GAY WHITE men WITH MONEY are the ones at the forefront.SAME issues as the rest of society,so get that shit outta politics unless it's marriage and employment related.Queer people are mostly liberated,gotdamnit,it's just straight people don't like us and alot of queer people don't like each other either]

 

and finally ,political correctness. Being black and underclass,i have a rather different perspective the term.I believe it is necessary...however,the issue I have is people trying to be politically correct to cover their asses.There is a such thing as a politically correct racism and it is alive and well in america and most definately with "leftists".I agree,it should not be used as a mask to cover other issues --said issues being actual racism,classism and poverty,period,which incidently all are tied together in a giant cluster-fuck conspiracy to keep the world like pyramid--all those at the bottom supporting the few at the top while being stepped on.

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Christian    728

The same issues apply to all areas of Identity Politics as you bring up about LGBTQ peoples though. There are African-American people with money. The experience of African-American females could be very different than the experience of African-American males, which may be very different than the experience of an African-American gay person. A woman CEO's experiences of gender would be very different than a poor woman's experiences. Then, we don't even cover other areas of disadvantage, such as mentally ill or physically handicapped, which can very much be a white male.

 

I don't disagree that racism exists in society, and affects certain people very differently than the majority. Systemic racism is a very big reason for why there is so much poverty among African-American and Latino populations in the United States. However, most of these issues stem from the State, which enforces draconian criminal laws, that are used to perpetuate the racial divide that was once enforced without any denial by Jim Crow laws. Then, the State passes welfare legislation, which keeps these poor people dependent on that same State, while a certain section of the political elite uses those self-same welfare legislation to stir up hatred and resentment against racial minorities in this country (even though there are plenty of poor white folk on welfare as well).

The prisons are stocked with racial minorities who committed non-violent crimes, and that's not because minorities are "less moral" than whites. The State enforces draconian laws which make it very hard for a person who has been in jail to get a job. The system is very much stacked so that it is incredibly hard to ever get out of poverty.

This systemic racism can be traced right back to the Civil War, when African-Americans were screwed over by the government after the war, as instead of being given ownership of the land that they and their families had worked for years, which by all rights the land belonged to them, the African-American population in the south, with nothing to their name, were forced to leave for the north in order to find jobs, as that was all the industry was located. That was the birth of the ghetto system.

So, more African-American people were starting out in abject poverty.

 

The upper class has feared one thing in the United States for decades, and that is, yes, very much indeed, poor minorities and poor white people forming an alliance against the wealthy elite. The elites mission has been done to do everything to keep the two sides divided, and not seeing their common interests. Hence, you have poor white people voting overwhelmingly for Republicans (seemingly against their own interests), while poor minorities overwhelmingly vote for Democrats (which have proven to offer nothing more than band-aids and false promises for poor people).

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