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#21 dogpoet

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:47 PM

And on the internet too many talentless "creatives" are quick to ascribe criticism of their latest output to envy on the part of the "hater" who had the poor manners to suggest that it maybe wasn't up to scratch rather than the "hater" having a valid criticism of the fact that they're churning out substandard creativity and expecting people to pay for it.

Swings and roundabouts, and probably worth remembering when the whole "hater" thing was started by the elements of the rap world who were making the least effort. You used to hear So Solid Crew whining about "haters" all the time. People with some semblance of talent? Not so much.

But that has little to do with More Constantine.

#22 Christian

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 08:47 PM

I wouldn't attack the creators. I'm sure they can do fine work (well, not Tynion. I don't know much about Doyle though, so I can't really say. The artwork is fine. I like the artwork on the book fine. Rossmo is an incredibly talented artist who should be helping to reinvent Constantine now that Hellblazer is long gone. But, I don't see how anyone could have enjoyed this issue.
There's just no real effort being put in to the story. It's as "by the numbers" basic as you can get. Anyone could have written this story....Tom DeFalco, anyone. There's nothing distinctive about it. as far as plotting. Plus, critiquing a writer or artist for not properly doing their job is perfectly acceptable. There have been continued flaws with the dialogue in this book.
If Constantine is to succeed, it needs more creativity and something different that sets is apart. Right now, there are two comics which are doing Constantine better than Constantine....Wolf and Doctor Strange....and that's a real problem.
Expecting us to pay the inflated price for one comic book issue today and then delivering a sub-par product is not acceptable. Yes, we can just drop the book. But, we're on a Hellblazer fan site. Many of us obviously care deeply about this character and want to see him succeed. We're the loyal backbone for John Constantine in the DC Universe. We're some of the few who stuck with the New 52 relaunch for all its mediocrity. We critique because we care.
We can only judge creators based on what they put on the page. Maybe Doyle does like John Constantine, but she's not a good fit for that character so far, as she isn't bringing much in the way of ideas to this book, as of yet.
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#23 A. Heathen

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 08:56 PM

You both misunderstand me.
Read some of the comments in threads gone by.

Take a look at this thread: "Thus why Tynion IV isn't a good wordsmith he thinks himself to be",
"
I thought it was Ming Doyle doing all the work and just fobbing some of the dialogue off to Tynion?"
"
looking for a job on a character they like more?"

I am totally on board with people critiquing writing and art.

And Dogpoet, I guess there are more creatives on the internet than there are people critiquing them, so I guess you're right.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"But that's the whole point, it's supernatural, these things happen.
It's not supposed to be realistic in that sense."

#24 Christian

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 10:09 PM

Well, the fact remains that some writers just aren't very good. Tynion has never written anything I've found worth my time to read. Writers need to prove themselves, if they are getting paid for writing.
It's the same as saying that Howard Mackie is a horrible writer....he's proven himself to be. In his entire career, he's never written anything that is worth reading, and most of it stands as some of the worst comic book work ever written. Tom DeFalco is a very average writer. Yes, he can write decently, but he's never once written a story that has been inventive or creative in any way. He does what he does. There's no way around that. Are they bad people? Probably not. Are they "hacks"? Probably not, as they probably do love superheroes and comic books (I know DeFalco does). But, sometimes there's no gentle way to say things about a creator. It's not "attacking the authors", it's pointing out that they have short-comings. Neil Gaiman is an excellent writer, he's written some of the greatest comic books ever, but he's also written some sub-par work. It's wrong to judge Gaiman based solely on his poorer quality work, because he can definitely write. But, it'd be wrong to not critique Gaiman's work based on the fact that he's written such masterful books in the past. Mackie and DeFalco are not at the level of a writer like Gaiman. I don't see any of those comments being an attack on the creators.
What I'm saying is that is there really that much of a degree of difference between saying, "Tynion has never written a quality comic book" versus the quote you reprinted? I'd say it's a small degree of difference, and if you say that pointing out that Tynion's career hasn't seen a great deal of talent (so far) is an "attack" on him, then it does limit the ability to critique the author's work.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
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#25 Demon Chas08

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 05:44 AM

View PostChristian, on 22 October 2015 - 08:47 PM, said:

I wouldn't attack the creators. I'm sure they can do fine work (well, not Tynion. I don't know much about Doyle though, so I can't really say. The artwork is fine. I like the artwork on the book fine. Rossmo is an incredibly talented artist who should be helping to reinvent Constantine now that Hellblazer is long gone. But, I don't see how anyone could have enjoyed this issue.
There's just no real effort being put in to the story. It's as "by the numbers" basic as you can get. Anyone could have written this story....Tom DeFalco, anyone. There's nothing distinctive about it. as far as plotting. Plus, critiquing a writer or artist for not properly doing their job is perfectly acceptable. There have been continued flaws with the dialogue in this book.
If Constantine is to succeed, it needs more creativity and something different that sets is apart. Right now, there are two comics which are doing Constantine better than Constantine....Wolf and Doctor Strange....and that's a real problem.
Expecting us to pay the inflated price for one comic book issue today and then delivering a sub-par product is not acceptable. Yes, we can just drop the book. But, we're on a Hellblazer fan site. Many of us obviously care deeply about this character and want to see him succeed. We're the loyal backbone for John Constantine in the DC Universe. We're some of the few who stuck with the New 52 relaunch for all its mediocrity. We critique because we care.
We can only judge creators based on what they put on the page. Maybe Doyle does like John Constantine, but she's not a good fit for that character so far, as she isn't bringing much in the way of ideas to this book, as of yet.

Thank you!
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#26 Qusoor

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 01:53 PM

I'll stick my oar in and say that I have no reason to read this any more. I have read the series, and I don't remember anything about the stories. They aren't memorable, which means that aren't interesting. I remember having hte feeling after I have read the comics that nothing ainteresting happened. I'm bored.

I don't hate it. I have no reaction to it. It's a thing I do for about fifteen minutes, and then wonder why I paid money to do such a thing.
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#27 Gwilym

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 02:52 PM

Yeah. I really don't like the "x minutes of my life I'll never get back" brand of comment, but it honestly feels pertinent here. That said, the comic creates some kind of existence bubble in which nothing ever happens, from which we exit in an identical atomic state to when we entered, and which, in terms of its effect on our overall lifespan, may not actually exist. So we could be okay.
eatingarbyseatingarbyseatingarbys

#28 Christian

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Posted 01 November 2015 - 07:48 PM

That's sort of the worst part about the book, ennit? It's just boring and so average, it's not outright bad. Sure, we can critique a lot of the clunky dialogue, but if a book is just plain awfully done, it can fun to rip it apart. This book is just dull. There's nothing to make fun of or attack in the story, it's just a matter of, "Gee, nothing happened".
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#29 dogpoet

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 01:34 PM

It probably wouldn't be as much of a problem if stuff was actually happening to Constantine instead of happening around him. It's not like Hellblazer didn't have a lengthy history of incoming writers giving Constantine a large supporting cast of long lost old friends so that terrible things could happen to them, but for some reason it just isn't having the same impact here. Maybe it's because we're all twenty years older than we were when Ennis started slaughtering his supporting cast?

#30 Christian

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Posted 04 November 2015 - 11:13 PM

To be fair, Ennis really built up the supporting cast as a big part of John's life, and then slaughtered them at the end of his run. We had a few good years of characterization first. This book expects us to be introduced to characters in one issue, and then care when they're killed off the next issue. I'm not saying HB writers haven't done that before.
Part of it is that we have seen this a number of times before, probably, yeah. If the whole point of this version of the book is that bad things happen to those around John, that's not that great of a hook.
I'd say it's deeper than just that superficial problem with the comic though, as there just isn't any sense of caring about any of it. It's like it's happening without any stakes. You got the feeling that John really cared when his friends died in Hellblazer. Here, I get the idea that John doesn't much care. Which rubs off on the reader that we don't really have anything to care about either.. It feels like everything is just going through the motions. We move slowly from Point A to Point C, and Point C isn't anything interesting, and we took a long detour around Point B to get to Point C.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#31 Demon Chas08

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 02:18 AM

View PostChristian, on 04 November 2015 - 11:13 PM, said:

To be fair, Ennis really built up the supporting cast as a big part of John's life, and then slaughtered them at the end of his run. We had a few good years of characterization first. This book expects us to be introduced to characters in one issue, and then care when they're killed off the next issue. I'm not saying HB writers haven't done that before.
Part of it is that we have seen this a number of times before, probably, yeah. If the whole point of this version of the book is that bad things happen to those around John, that's not that great of a hook.
I'd say it's deeper than just that superficial problem with the comic though, as there just isn't any sense of caring about any of it. It's like it's happening without any stakes. You got the feeling that John really cared when his friends died in Hellblazer. Here, I get the idea that John doesn't much care. Which rubs off on the reader that we don't really have anything to care about either.. It feels like everything is just going through the motions. We move slowly from Point A to Point C, and Point C isn't anything interesting, and we took a long detour around Point B to get to Point C.

Given what's been going down so far, I believe it's been this way dating back to Milligan then Lemire & Fawkes early on. Who really cared about Phoebe or whatsisname from New52!Johnny #1?
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#32 GottaGetAGrip

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 02:38 AM

Milligan cared!

#33 Demon Chas08

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 04:03 AM

View PostGottaGetAGrip, on 05 November 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

Milligan cared!

Based on the shit he did to our boy, Gemma and Angie, he sure has a fucked up way of caring
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#34 GottaGetAGrip

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 06:25 AM

Gotta make sure the AWESOME! HIP! QUIRKY! COLORFUL!© toys you introduce look better on the shelf than all those older toys the other guys made! :smile2:

#35 Demon Chas08

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 12:44 PM

View PostGottaGetAGrip, on 05 November 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

Gotta make sure the AWESOME! HIP! QUIRKY! COLORFUL! toys you introduce look better on the shelf than all those older toys the other guys made! :smile2:

Then our book gets canned and readers fled from Milligan's toys despite the very tiny minority that loved that run. We'll talk about this in the Milligan thread; this is about how much a hipster damp squib the new book is
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#36 dogpoet

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 01:07 PM

Hipster damp squib?
Are you saying Constantine is no longer bi, he's now pomosexual instead?
:biggrin:

#37 seventhcircle

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 04:53 PM

that is next level.

Quote

Of cause you keep going on. We.. we all keep going on. If we stop laughing, than they have won.
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#38 dogpoet

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 05:25 PM

Coming soon from DC: [Nathan] Barley: The Hellblazer...
:blink:

#39 Christian

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:11 PM

Does anyone else hope for actual Hellblazer toys now?
Sex toys?
No, no. Regular action figure toys.
I imagine Milligan creating Epiphany for the sake of a cool action figure of her being made, and now not ever seeing that happen.
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#40 Lou K

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:12 PM

I didn't even bother with the last 2 that came out.
In the age of the internet someone's sensibility is ALWAYS being tested.

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