Jump to content


The Hellblazer Afterbirth


  • Please log in to reply
130 replies to this topic

#21 dogpoet

dogpoet

    From Hell's heart I strike at thee...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,653 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The bit of Scotland just over Cumbria.

Posted 29 February 2016 - 05:37 PM

The problem there is probably the whole "not an archetype" thing Lady C mentions. Archetypes are a lot simpler than developed characters, and can be shoehorned into almost any story, retrofitted at will and generally mucked about without harming their archetypicality. Characters who are sort of developed through an elaborate and (mostly) consistent backstory just don't work the same way, sadly.

#22 JasonT

JasonT

    Stressing over cat urine

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 08 March 2016 - 07:02 AM

View PostChristian, on 29 February 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

I'd rather DC just let the character go at this point. Each relaunch seems to be doing a greater disservice to the character from Moore and Delano.

+1.

#23 Savage Savant

Savage Savant

    Constanteen PG15

  • Members
  • 9 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Florida

Posted 11 March 2016 - 03:30 AM

View PostChristian, on 29 February 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

The thing is that Hellblazer was bleeding readers after Azzarello left the book. Vertigo kept it going until issue #300 with sales far below anything that DC Comics would allow to continue. When DC decided they wanted to relaunch the book, they didn't just want to keep the same fans as were reading Hellblazer, they wanted to create a lot of new fans of the character. To be brutally honest, they did, to an extent, succeed, considering that the sales on Constantine were numbers that Hellblazer could only wish for within the last decade of its existence. However, the sales were also pretty bad by comparison with other New 52 titles, so it's not like it was a total success. So, DC relaunched the book again with a new creative team and new direction and new take on the character. This version is failing even quicker than Constantine though. I'm not sure there actually is a market for the character anymore, not compared to the sales figures that DC is wanting from their monthly books. Except, DC has decided to save the character one more time, even though the sales are just not there.
At this point, I think it's a matter of DC experimenting with the character or the character just being canceled. I don't think DC has faith in the Hellblazer concept being marketable to fans outside of the cult following that the Vertigo series maintained through #300.
As much as I wish it was a case of DC mishandling the character and needing to listen to the fans, I don't believe there are enough diehard Hellblazer fans left to be worth it to DC economically to bother to listen to us. I'd rather DC just let the character go at this point. Each relaunch seems to be doing a greater disservice to the character from Moore and Delano.

Ouch! I guess I'm the only diehard DC & HB fan on this board then. I know a lot of people will cringe at this but I like the fact that HB (& by extension the other Vertigo horror/fantasy characters & mythos) are in their own corner of the DCU but still faintly a part of it no less. I believe it's mostly a manner of the people at DC are idiots and don't honestly have any passion or love for these characters. Of course they're trying to make money but it doesn't seem like they care about what the fans want or respecting the history of these characters.

Anyway I don't think Constantine can ever truly be mainstream per se, but the character can potentially develop a stronger following. I mean I find it hard to believe HB didn't influence things like the Dresden Files or Supernatural, etc so the character's influence in pop culture is there, just subtle.

On a sidenote, I personally look to a lot of the stuff 2000AD publishes when I desire comic tales similar to HB. I'm surprised 2000AD doesn't get a lot of love in the comic book community since they heavily inspired a lot of comic culture. For some reason, I just find British sci-fi to be more imaginative & though-provoking than most tales spun out from here in the States. My 2 cents.

I guess outside of Dr. Who it's kinda hard for British sci-fi series overall to gain a large following in the States...

#24 JohnMcMahon

JohnMcMahon

    absentee landlord

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,242 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 11 March 2016 - 08:12 AM

I don't actually have a problem with Constantine being in the DCU, Veitch and Moore for example made good use of the universe during their excellent runs on Swamp Thing for example.

Actually calling him a Hellblazer though and acting like it's a thing - just, no.
featherweight champion, cheap to get pissed

#25 Lou K

Lou K

    POWAH!!!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,747 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 11 March 2016 - 01:56 PM

View PostJohnMcMahon, on 11 March 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

I don't actually have a problem with Constantine being in the DCU

Me neither. It's where he came from after all. But it has to be done right.
In the age of the internet someone's sensibility is ALWAYS being tested.

~ James

Posted Image

#26 Gwilym

Gwilym

    Nick Necro's Boyfriend

  • Members
  • 628 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:shitting in a tin can

Posted 11 March 2016 - 01:56 PM

View PostJohnMcMahon, on 11 March 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

Actually calling him a Hellblazer though and acting like it's a thing - just, no.

Mike Carey treated it as a thing. When John's telling the Tate club off he uses it in his list of job titles

THEREFORE this comic is good

actually I haven't read it in months because this comic is not good
eatingarbyseatingarbyseatingarbys

#27 dogpoet

dogpoet

    From Hell's heart I strike at thee...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,653 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The bit of Scotland just over Cumbria.

Posted 11 March 2016 - 02:58 PM

Actually, no: that's the one time Carey (or anybody else) has him use the term as a description himself, and in context, it's just one of his drunken sneers while mocking the Tate club.

The only way a Hellblazer might be a thing, is if it's the name of his magical trenchcoat in the Milligan run...

#28 Christian

Christian

    The Last One

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brigadoon

Posted 11 March 2016 - 07:33 PM

The new Constantine series doesn't even really take place in the DCU, except tangentially. So, that's not the big issue. Yes, Neron is being used in the current story-arc, but he could just be any big-shot demon. Swamp Thing did appear in that one issue, but that's a Vertigo connection as much as a DC connection, plus DC just did it to hype the new Swamp Thing series that was launching. I don't read the new Constantine series and think of the DCU or have a problem with it because it's nominally set in the DCU.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#29 slinker

slinker

    Dr. Orpheus!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,444 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:Venture Industries Arachnid Research Facility

Posted 13 March 2016 - 10:05 AM

Well, I don't like him in the DCU bumping up to Bats and Supes and Arrow boy.
When you are a step ahead of everybody else, they call you a genius. When you are two steps ahead, they say you're crazy.

"If you can't say 'Fuck,' you can't say, 'Fuck the government.'" - Lenny Bruce

#30 dogpoet

dogpoet

    From Hell's heart I strike at thee...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,653 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The bit of Scotland just over Cumbria.

Posted 13 March 2016 - 12:55 PM

I always really liked that in Swamp Thing and the Delano Hellblazer (and that early issue of the Sandman as well), to be honest. The notion that anything and everything might go in a fictional universe makes it a lot more fun than one where the different storylines have rigidly enforced borders.

#31 Demon Chas08

Demon Chas08

    Con Artist

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2,142 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greensboro,North Carolina

Posted 13 March 2016 - 05:40 PM

View Postslinker, on 13 March 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Well, I don't like him in the DCU bumping up to Bats and Supes and Arrow boy.
Me neither. It's not like he's Frank Castle where he can balance both
"Ha ha! Cookies on dowels!"- Phil Ken Sebben circa 2001

For Doctor Who, Torchwood, Bernice Summerfield & Sarah Jane reviews go to: www.doctorwhoreviews.co.uk

For Doctor Who Chronology: http://drwhocontinut...e.blogspot.com/

#32 dogpoet

dogpoet

    From Hell's heart I strike at thee...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,653 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The bit of Scotland just over Cumbria.

Posted 14 March 2016 - 02:10 PM

Why can't he balance both? Zatanna, Baron Winters and Swamp Thing are all part of the mainstream DCU as well.

#33 Christian

Christian

    The Last One

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brigadoon

Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:21 PM

I don't even know how well Punisher can balance both. The superheroes have to act really funny when Punisher is around. "Heroes never kill! And, this Punisher guy...he's, umm, different because....Huh."
Considering that Mark Gruenwald wrote an entire story-arc about a vigilante who kills super-villains and how Captain America must stop him and why he opposes a vigilante doing such a thing, it makes the existence of the Punisher being treated as a hero even more of an anomaly.

I think John Constantine works better with the DC's supernatural characters than Punisher works in a world of superheroes and supervillains, honestly.
The story is more important than anything to me, whether it takes place in the DCU or in its own universe.

The Delano run isn't a good example of John in the DCU though. Yes, there was some mention of superheroes towards the beginning, and Swamp Thing guest-starred, but it very much takes place in Thatcher's Britain. It's hard to reconcile Delano's realist version of England with the DCU, in my mind.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#34 dogpoet

dogpoet

    From Hell's heart I strike at thee...

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,653 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The bit of Scotland just over Cumbria.

Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:40 PM

The weird crap is eruptions of the irrational into the realistic. Like a teenager's zits.
(And honestly: the passing mention of a superhero or Elemental God is more of a lapse in mimesis than Demons, ghosts and the alternate universe next door?)

#35 Christian

Christian

    The Last One

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 22,310 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brigadoon

Posted 14 March 2016 - 07:58 PM

Well, one is supernatural and unknown, while the other is part of that universe and natural.
There's enough room for doubt about the one to be able to have atheists, while it'd be pretty stupid if someone in the DC Universe said they didn't believe in the existence of superheroes.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#36 lady_constantine

lady_constantine

    Hogwarts Graduate

  • Members
  • 387 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:philadelphia ,PA

Posted 15 March 2016 - 02:59 AM

Again...Injustice gods among us combined all the dcu elements in a way that made it awesome and NOT awkward.They did it right that time.I rest my case
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#37 lady_constantine

lady_constantine

    Hogwarts Graduate

  • Members
  • 387 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:philadelphia ,PA

Posted 15 March 2016 - 03:34 AM

View PostChristian, on 14 March 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

I don't even know how well Punisher can balance both. The superheroes have to act really funny when Punisher is around. "Heroes never kill! And, this Punisher guy...he's, umm, different because....Huh."
Considering that Mark Gruenwald wrote an entire story-arc about a vigilante who kills super-villains and how Captain America must stop him and why he opposes a vigilante doing such a thing, it makes the existence of the Punisher being treated as a hero even more of an anomaly.

I think John Constantine works better with the DC's supernatural characters than Punisher works in a world of superheroes and supervillains, honestly.
The story is more important than anything to me, whether it takes place in the DCU or in its own universe.

The Delano run isn't a good example of John in the DCU though. Yes, there was some mention of superheroes towards the beginning, and Swamp Thing guest-starred, but it very much takes place in Thatcher's Britain. It's hard to reconcile Delano's realist version of England with the DCU, in my mind.
agreed,though the MCU is less opposed to killing.We saw in captain america the winter soldier steve flipping people of boats into the ocean,hitting people in ways that probably might severely injure or accidently kill,Black widow shooting and killing people on screen,plus they used the ultimates-inspired version of Sam wilson (falcon) who's rocks a jet pack and specializes in duel weilding machine guns.We got matt murdock fucking people up for life like droppin' folks off roofs an' shit.I dig that in the comics the punisher is kinda ??? but he fits right in (though I heard rumors of him appearing in daredeviul--punisher vs daredevil,punisher will kill you where as though daredvil doesn't really care what happens to you,though i think he avoids intentional killing only because he's a lawyer and knows the law,plus i have a sneaking suspicion he wants people to spread the word).in the mcu,they usually face villains that the only way to solve the problem is to kill the mofo-which .
i think the biggest problem with dcu is the high power levels of their supers we have regular people and then we have wonder woman and superman.If we have a johnconstantine roaming around and then we have supergirl (this is dccu) then that is the disparage there.Marvek folks are on easier scales when affiliated--though Constantine/JLD john are the strongest incarnations we've seen and in that context would make sense.guess if he was a homo magi vs human..

then again,Constantine is NOT a regular human guys.
Who remembers 'the laughing magician' arc? john constanine is actually like an inadvertent reality warper and an like some universal manifestation--the last laughing magician and his previous incarnation was lady Constantine

(on an unrelated note,i just love that he was a chick in the last life.no really)

but you get the point.power disparage makes it hard to blend the universe--though i wonder how the hell thor fitted into the mcu,but?? fine,whatever.he only uses his relevant abilities in battle--and the hulk is--just the hulk.luckily banner is NOT a villain.the mcu you would be fucked
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#38 Lou K

Lou K

    POWAH!!!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 14,747 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Michigan

Posted 15 March 2016 - 02:47 PM

View Postdogpoet, on 13 March 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

I always really liked that in Swamp Thing

Fuck yeah. Love when Batman hit Alec with the herbicide only for Alec to grow like 5 more bodies and pummel Batman to fuck. That was fun. Holding Gotham siege was fun too. But I think ST gets more of a pass than JC for whatever reason.
In the age of the internet someone's sensibility is ALWAYS being tested.

~ James

Posted Image

#39 JohnMcMahon

JohnMcMahon

    absentee landlord

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 16,242 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 March 2016 - 03:23 PM

Aren't there a few funny scans knocking around of nu-52 Constantine stuck in a car with Batman and - possibly - a chimp* ?

Any word on the creative team for the relaunch ?

*Not that chimp
featherweight champion, cheap to get pissed

#40 lady_constantine

lady_constantine

    Hogwarts Graduate

  • Members
  • 387 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:philadelphia ,PA

Posted 15 March 2016 - 03:48 PM

View PostJohnMcMahon, on 15 March 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

Aren't there a few funny scans knocking around of nu-52 Constantine stuck in a car with Batman and - possibly - a chimp* ?

Any word on the creative team for the relaunch ?

*Not that chimp

happened in injustice gods among us:year 3

loves injustice and that is like the one dcu series i keep reading.also,there are some damn good elseworlds tales out there
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users