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#21 Christian

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 07:03 PM

Lyndon Laroushe (I'm not sure if that's how you spell his name) started the "rapper" conspiracy back in the 1970s. The guy started out claiming to be a Socialist, but promoted these different anti-Masonic/anti-Semitic theories that alienated him, and then later said that he couldn't deal with the "culture war" that the Left was helping furthering against the :"West", and how they had fallen in to the conspiracy, unwittingly. Later, he started funding different Right libertarian groups, which suddenly started to promote all these neo-Nazi conspiracy theories. It seems that the guy was always a crypto-fascist.
Anyway, his big conspiracy when he broke with the Left (as if he was ever really part of the Left, rather than trying to recruit working class people to the far Right, a typical fascist tactic) was that rap music was created by the Freemasons to undermine white culture.
It was hilarious. A bunch of old white guys wearing their little skirt things coming up with these lyrics and dancing around in their temples....I can picture it in my head. It always makes me laugh. Then, going on to teach African-American people how to perform like that. "No. No. You have to sound hipper. Here, try it like this!".
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
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#22 lady_constantine

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 09:17 PM

oh lord,who beleives this??! As a black person ,a black american ,i can tell you the origins of hip hop were mostly in philadelphia PA ,and New York--and had Jamaican influence believe it or not.Puerto Ricans were in on it too .This started in the late 70's-early 80's...rap was around before hip hop andthe two are NOT synonymous--case in point Lauryn Hill and Mary J. Blige who often sing to hip hop songs,and Beyonce back in her early days (this shit she does now is a travesty.She is talented but...she use to be better)not to mention harmonizing which was a thong with Nate Dog and some others back in the day (the 90's--u guys probably don't even know wtf i'm talkin; bout').In the 80's we had groups like African Bombata who were electronic-hip hop and were awesome,then we had Beastie Boys and Run DMC with rock/hip hop crossovers  and rap metal is a thing....and that's mostly white people.

so...strange old white dudes in skirts..that's funny.

for the record,rappers and black people in general do a lot of spoofing and stealth trolling to white people,especially with the illumani thing...good luck trynna figure out what's real and what's not.
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#23 lady_constantine

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 09:38 PM

View PostChristian, on 30 April 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

It seems to be that occultists like to postulate this idea that the world is run by secret lodges of white magicians and secret lodges of black magicians, with the two sides vying for control of human history. The writer, as an occultist, like to pretend that he's taking the side of the "good guys" in history (based on whatever his own beliefs happen to be), and that he's part of the struggle to save humanity from the evil black magicians. By creating a scenario where that was the case in World War II, with the Nazis representing a form of black magical order, it helps promote this belief in how history is shaped.

I agree that the idea of Nazism being all based in the occult is highly overestimating the situation, but I don't disagree that certain occult orders which were based in the Aryan race as a superior race whose mission was to cleanse the world for the sake of the deities had a role in the early national Socialist movement, before Hitler rose to power. It's also documented that members of Ariosophist orders were early members of the nascent national Socialist movement, and that some of the ideas proposed by Franz List, with his racial and cultural form of occultism, were very much compatible with Nazism. Of course, there were lots of other elements involved also.
Hitler, and most of his Nazi high command, seemed more concerned with materialist conceptions of history.
Himmler, on the other hand, was the guy who was really interested in the occult.

Goodrich-Clarke is at least more sensible with his theories than these religious Right types who like to lump together all forms of occultism as the exact same thing. So, Freemasons, the Golden Dawn, Anthroposophy, the Theosophical Society...they were all behind the Nazis! That's what the Nazis were....a bunch of homosexual occultists who worshipped Karl Marx! It's so insulting, considering that homosexual people, Communists, and members of different occult orders were all sent to concentration camps.
A simple reading of Nazi propaganda would show that the Nazis really conflated Jewish, Mason, and Communist in to one big conspiracy theory, that there was a conspiracy by the two groups to control the world, and that both are the creation of the "International Zionist Conspiracy".

as a forer occultist---i can assure the world is in fact run by power and money=power.

it;s just that some of those people turn to occult to help get in and shift things in their favor.Actual black magicans are quite rare- most people do the cutesy 'white magic' thing,neutral psychics,or they do like Constantine and dabble in both.it is noted,however,that many these people are NOT naturally gifted like Constantine and a large number of ghost hunters/occult detectives.psychics are fakes,or hobbyists who have lives and day jobs and often come up empty. once sat on a bench during a ghost hunt to see what would happen--i knew the place wasn't haunted (some people can sense these things though I have been out f the loop lately--but nobody was gonna listen to a sixteen year old goth from the ghetto?

far as the national socialist party,it was largely attribute dto the falout of WW1 and the taxing stipulations put on Germany afterwards.The people were desperate and Eugenics and anto-semitism was already a thing,pre-hitler.Been around since colonialism and was prevalent during slavery.Was use dto justify oppression.

on a fun note,I bet conjob just had to show his blonde haired ,blue eyes self and and say Heil Hitler; casta few stealth spells and got in.

also--these guys ain't got shit on HYDRA  ....I'll just let that simmer
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#24 Christian

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Posted 01 May 2016 - 11:10 PM

I'm very much involved in the occult, but I don't buy in to the occult secret societies and all their little games and myths. Basically, most occultists want to make themselves feel more powerful, that they can really change and affect the world. Rather than the fact that most occult orders were simply an aspect of a wider counter-culture and made up of outsiders, who had a hard time fitting in with the wider society. That's what occultism means to me, it's something individual and personal.

Saying that, there are certainly people involved with the Freemasons who do have a lot of power, and some of them are involved in some quite shady things. I don't think that the Freemasons are a secret conspiracy with the power to control the world, however, there are people in positions of power who are involved with secret societies. Secret Brotherhoods are a good way to meet and make connections with other power players. They look out for each other.
If you don't think there's anything to conspiracy theories, however, look no further than the P2 Masonic Lodge in Italy. It was very much involved with pro-fascist forces and set up a conspiracy to target the far Left in Italy, with the eventual goal of the suppression of all unions on behalf of industrialists. They had far reaching ties, including neo-fascist forces operating in Latin America at the time and the CIA. One of their high-ranking members was even Berlusconi, who later became PM of Italy.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#25 dogpoet

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 12:06 PM

View PostChristian, on 01 May 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

Basically, most occultists want to make themselves feel more powerful, that they can really change and affect the world. Rather than the fact that most occult orders were simply an aspect of a wider counter-culture and made up of outsiders, who had a hard time fitting in with the wider society. That's what occultism means to me, it's something individual and personal.
Sadly, any set up that encourages guruism lends itself towards that. "Simon" likes to argue that this is the main reason his Necronomicon is so despised by ritual magicians, doesn't he? A magical system that you can quietly work through on your own, without having to get some mad old fart to initiate you into their temple is a threat to the guru system. The same claims are made for against chaos magic in general (Grant Morrison, iirc, has a good line on this) and the various books aimed at the solitary Wiccan, which latter are a source of contention for idiots who think that anybody who isn't working as part of a coven identical to theirs using the same book of shadows isn't really a proper witch at all.

Lady Constantine said:

for the record,rappers and black people in general do a lot of spoofing and stealth trolling to white people,especially with the illumani thing...good luck trynna figure out what's real and what's not.

I think there was a lot of debate back in the '70s about how serious Peter Tosh was about his tendency to come out with a lot of Yakub talk, wasn't there?
(And on the subject of the '70s, aren't the Last Poets and Gil Scott Heron seen as progenitors of rap as well as the Talkover stuff?)

#26 seventhcircle

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 01:11 PM

for my image of witches you have to be a blonde and have a familiar that is a talking black cat.

Quote

Of cause you keep going on. We.. we all keep going on. If we stop laughing, than they have won.
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#27 dogpoet

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 01:39 PM

I don't think they like her much, either.
:wink2:

#28 Christian

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:09 PM

Yeah, my girlfriend is a big fan of David Icke (I enjoy him too), and she likes to point out how many celebrities are giving Illuminati symbols at award shows and stuff now. I said, "Don't you think they're messing with the conspiracy theorists at this point? I mean, they're all over the internet. If they were an ultra-secret society, do you think they'd be flashing these symbols on network TV shows, when the symbolism is all explained on YouTube?".

I think the problem with Simon's Necronomicon was that he was trying to pass it off as something real that H.P. Lovecraft had exclusive access to as part of some ultra-secret society. Plus, the fact that it was heavily based in Sumerian mythology, but disguised by changing all the names to Lovecraftian terminology. If he's saying anything now about occultists reception to the book, I'm guessing it's because the fact that it was a hoax was quickly revealed.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#29 dogpoet

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 06:52 PM

View PostChristian, on 02 May 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

I think the problem with Simon's Necronomicon was that he was trying to pass it off as something real that H.P. Lovecraft had exclusive access to as part of some ultra-secret society. Plus, the fact that it was heavily based in Sumerian mythology, but disguised by changing all the names to Lovecraftian terminology. If he's saying anything now about occultists reception to the book, I'm guessing it's because the fact that it was a hoax was quickly revealed.
Er, no?
I don't have my copy to hand, but I can't recall one word in there about all of that. (Apart from it being a book called The Necronomicon that purports to have been written by a mad Arab, obvs.) He sticks to the Summerian stuff and doesn't go dragging in any Lovecraftian names besides Ktulu. I remember finding the book rather unsatisfactory as a fourteen year for that very reason, in fact...
The book is obviously bollocks historically, but he's done a far better job or making the Summerian stuff look at least vaguely plausible than most other alleged Necronomicans I've read, and frankly his book length rebuttal to Harms and Gonce does seem a fair bit more credible than anything they have to say on the subject. I'm obviously not wired for magic myself, but people who are have at least got some results from the Simononicon, while I can't imagine them getting a single viable casting from the George Hay Necronomicon that appeared in print at the same sort of time. (Mind you, I don't think there's anybody besides Colin Wilson who thought that one was on the level, is there?)

As for Icke and the symbolism at awards shows, you get some halfwits claiming that's a deliberate attempt to debunk The Conspiracy so that the idiot consumers won't take any of it seriously: there seems to be a whole load of aggrieved whining about that in those terms over the last ten or fifteen years, doesn't there?

#30 Christian

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:01 PM

There's an entire 80 page introduction to the Simon Necronomicon where he discusses its historical authenticity, and brings up the bogus connection between Lovecraft and Aleister Crowley.
He claims he was introduced to a Greek translation of a much older manuscript by a mysterious monk.  He goes on to say that the antiquity of the original manuscript predates all known religions (even though, as you point out, it's obviously heavily based in Sumerian mythology).
Also, I remember references being made to the "Elder Gods", which we're meant to associate with the Lovecraftian concept in a book titled the Necronomicon.
Maybe you skipped the "boring" bits and jumped right to the black magic rituals.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#31 dogpoet

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:22 PM

No, I read the introduction. He only mentions Lovecraft in passing. He also names all of the Gods (Elder or otherwise) in the book as Summerian deities. There's no names that sound very Lovecraftian named anywhere.

#32 Christian

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:36 PM

I might have been mistaken about his using Lovecraft names in place of Sumerian deities (it's been a few decades since I read the book), but he does refer to the deities referenced as the "Elder Gods" which is certainly from Lovecraft, especially in a book titled Necronomicon.
I remember quite a bit of dubious information about Lovecraft in the introduction. There's the bogus connection with Crowley mentioned. There was misinformation that Lovecraft's theme in writing his stories was to detail a cosmic war between good and evil, which was actually August Derleth's interpretation of Lovecraft's writing, and isn't explicit in Lovecraft's writings.

Also of note is that it's suspected that "Simon"" was really New York based occultist Peter Levenda. The fact that the US copyright office shows Levenda as taking out a copyright for Simon's Gates of the Neconomicon seems to be proof that this is indeed the case.
To bring everything full circle, Levenda, himself, (rather than his pseudonym) was most famous for publishing a book about Esoteric Nazism!
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#33 dogpoet

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 07:44 PM

Fair enough. In context, him having a clue about the Summerian stuff seems more relevant than some misguided generalisations about Lovecraft to try to tie the old boy's ouevre into an alleged Greek translation of an Arabic spellbook that might include some authetic Summerian material. :tongue:
(If we're being pedantic about Lovecraft and Crowley though, there was a tenuous connection there through Sonia Greene: even if the talk of her having been one of Crowley's scarlet women was utter crap, she was part of Crowley's circle at one point.)

#34 Christian

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Posted 02 May 2016 - 08:08 PM

There's actually no proof that Sonia Greene was involved with the occult. That was part of the same hoax that Simon played off, I do believe. It was stated that Lovecraft found out about the Necronomicon from Sonia Greene, because she had discovered it through being involved with Crowley. Obviously, the Necronomicon does not exist. I highly doubt Lovecraft got inspiration to create the Necronomicon solely through Greene. And, the rumour of Green being involved with occultism seems to be based on the fact that Sonia Greene was once in attendance at a night club where Crowley was reading poetry. That's hardly any sort of proof that Greene was involved with Crowley!
It's pretty well documented the figures involved with the Golden Dawn and Crowley's occult orders, and Greene's name never comes up in any sources outside of one that's connected to "Simon", who is known for creating hoaxes.

I think the Sumerian stuff sort of turned me off because I felt it was being derivative of Zecheriah Sitchin's The Twelfth Planet, which did the same for "ancient aliens" using Babylonian mythology. I believe Sitchin's book came out only a few years before "Simon"'s.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#35 dogpoet

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 12:49 PM

I said a tenuous connection, not a credible, viable or believable one, Christian. I'm not saying that she was an occultist, just that Lovecraft has a Five-Degrees-Of-Kevin-Bacon link to Crowley through her. For all of the nonsense that's written about Crowley, it's often forgotten just how big deal he was in his day: the man was one of the first modern-style celebrities, wasn't he?

What other hoaxes is "Simon" known for, besides the Simonomicon? I thought the only other thing he'd published under that name besides an alleged history of how the original manuscript of the Simonomicon was acquired, translated and published* was a translation of The Black Pullet?

BTW: I've dug out my copy of the Simonicon and looked through the introduction again, and it appears that we're both wrong as it makes no attempt to connect Crowley and Lovecraft, but merely drops the names of both. In fact, it makes a point of deliberately disavowing any connection between the two besides a shared interest in Summeria. Elder Gods are only mentioned in reference to his mistaking Derleth's cosmology for Lovecraft's, though he does spend a few pages of the introduction trying to make connections between Lovecraftian beasties and some of the Summerian (or pseudo Summerian according to some) names used in the grimoire itself.

*(Which is quite a good read, if you've not looked at that one. Before he goes into a hatchet job -a fair chunk of which seems reasonable enough- on John Wisdom Gonce's part of the Necronomicon File, he goes into a lot of detail about wandering Bishops and Soviet era East European Orthodox churches in exile, and uses that to provide a surprisingly watertight alibi as to why the original manuscript the Simonomicon was translated from can't now be produced. It's bullshit, of course, but it's much more carefully thought out and rationalised bullshit than Gerald Gardner's bullshit, or the bullshit that's used to provide a fake provenance for most grimoires.)

#36 Christian

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 04:22 PM

I was going by "Simon" as Peter Levenda, when I spoke of him being known for hoaxes other than the Necronomicon. The US copyright pretty much proves they're the same, which was already suspected by people interested in the occult from the start.

I kind of doubt that you could give "Simon"'s bullshit the same provenance as Gerald Gardner, considering that no academic ever took anything pertaining to Lovecraft very seriously, whereas Gardner had the provenance of a respected figure like Margaret Murray, which did gain widespread attention in the academic world for a number of years.
After all, I don't believe "Simon" was ever being published in any serious academic journals, while Murray's witch cult theory was being published in the Folklore Society's academic journal.

Yeah, Crowley was famous enough to get a W. Somerset Maugham novel written about him!
Although, there's the very real connection between Crowley's first wife's brother being best friends with Maugham, and Maugham basically deciding to get revenge on Crowley on behalf of Rose's family for the fact that Crowley and Kelly married against her family's wishes.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#37 dogpoet

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 05:15 PM

You do know that "Simon" makes a point of insisting that he's not Peter Levenda, who just stepped in to copyright his book because he didn't want his own name attached to it, I take it? Doesn't offer any other suggestions of who he might be, of course. :laugh: Just how seriously is the Levenda thesis taken at this point? I thought the current line was that "Simon" was some sort of corporate identity set up by a group of people associated with the Warlock Shop to hide behind?

Not even Margaret Murray could get much leeway for Gardner in academic circles. I think the fact that he was prone to pretending to qualifications he didn't have messed that one up for him. Hell, it isn't like Murray was getting taken all that seriously herself by the turn of the '70s. At least "Simon"'s bullshit is a bit more consistent and coherent. I'll take a story about a manuscript of unknown provenance stolen from an ecclesiastical collection over some twerp insisting that he had singlehandedly discovered a hidden religion that had been hiding from the Christians since the Romans arrived in Britain any day.

#38 Christian

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Posted 03 May 2016 - 06:46 PM

Yeah, I did hear that he denied it was the case, but there's also speculation that it's due to him still wanting gullible folks to believe that the Necronomicon is an ancient grimoire, rather than something he dreamt up.
No, I don't think it was members of the Warlock Shop, because they were the ones who were first pointing out that the whole thing was a hoax and speculating that Levenda was behind it. Based on what I know, the members never took the book seriously, which would seem odd if the author(s) wanted people to think it was authentic. Levenda might not have been the sole author...but, a lot of aspects of the novel were cribbed together from other occult sources, so I'd give the benefit of the doubt that one person was probably responsible.
Levenda still seems the most likely candidate. He was associated with Colin Low, who was the one who started the rumour about Sonia Greene being involved with Crowley and finding out about the Necronomicon from Crowley.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#39 dogpoet

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 11:35 AM

Still sounds circumstantial to me, although it's something that'd be hard to prove outside of court. Mind you, I find it hard to give anybody a hard time because the Simonomicon wasn't written in Damascus in the twelfth century, as it isn't like Solomon or Pope Honorius wrote the grimoires that are attributed to them, so holding something else to a higher standard seems a bit off. Waite was in the habit of claiming that Abramelin was almost certainly written by somebody from the old testament as well, wasn't he?

Seriously, you should read the Dead Names, and probably The Necronomicon File as well. They're fascinating if you're interested in the ins and outs of the Simonomicon's production, and they're also very funny indeed approached in the right state of mind.

#40 Christian

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Posted 04 May 2016 - 08:39 PM

I never said I had a problem with the Necronomicon, other than that I didn't find it that impressive, myself. I was saying that hardly anyone fell for the hoax when "Simon" came out with it. A lot of magic is the art of illusion, making people believe in a lie. That's part of how you can actually affect the world around you. There's nothing wrong with trying to fool someone in to believing your lie, when it comes to occultism. The occult can be fun because of the Imagination you put in to it all.

Many of the grimoires, while they do have a dubious history, in and of themselves, did record information that was passed down from earlier sources, as well. "Simon"'s grimoire is actually not that different, in that a lot of the rituals were cribbed from earlier occult texts.

Waite never claimed that about The Book of Abramelin. He claimed that Abramelin knew Abraham of Worms. Some people might have mistaken the "Abraham" in question to refer to the Abraham of the Old Testament.
No one actually knows the history of The Book of Abramelin, but the dates given for its origin seem to be correct.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde




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