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Has NBC ruined 'Constantine' by straightwashing its protagonist?


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Poll: Has NBC ruined 'Constantine' by straightwashing its protagonist? (17 member(s) have cast votes)

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#21 James

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 05:10 PM

View PostNick Neko, on 14 July 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

I think it takes quite a commitment for one man to have sex with another man.

Has nobody taken this cheap shot yet? Really?

#22 Demon Chas08

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 06:20 PM

View Postslinker, on 14 July 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

i got to tumblr and the first post i found was this one (written by our mutual friend) -

Quote

Some Levity About Constantineís Shag Preferences, Please


Look, in all honesty, John Constantine's sexuality is not an issue for me. Just like my friends, I don't care who he fucks, as long as it's mutual. In all 300 issues, John only ever was shown being sexual with one guy - Stanley Manor. And that was part of a long con to get revenge on Manor. There is one other issue in which John makes a remark about people in his bedóďgirls and the occasional bloke.Ē And thatís it as far as Johnís bisexuality. See, many people who have not read the book are up in arms because they heard John was bisexual, not because they read it for themselves. But claiming itís canon?

Birds John has shagged:
Zed, Emma, Marj, Kit, Angie, a prostitute, Phoebe, Epiphany (Iíve probably missed a few but there we are).

Blokes Johnís shagged:
Stanley Manor, and apparently one or more based on a single comment once.

So, you see, thatís hardly canon.

Finally, I will add this: in my formative years when I first became sexually active, all I was was horny. In between the first few girls I messed around with, there were a few encounters with boys my age going through the same thing. Thatís way more common than youíd think. In fact, the estimate is that 67% of all straight men have had one or more homosexual encounters. But that doesnít make them bisexual, it makes them ďtry-sexualĒ meaning at that age, theyíd try anything sexual. And Iím in that category myself. Iíve been with boys as a teen, none as an adult. I married a woman with whom I enjoy having lots of sex and I donít fantasize about boys or desire to be with one.

I have no problem with homosexuality and Iím proud of my many gay and bi-  friends and consider them to be among the bravest people Iíve ever known and I love them dearly.

But I donít care who they fuck. Same with John. See, itís nobodyís business who fucks whom as long as itís consensual. John wouldnít give a toss who Iím fucking either. And thatís as it should be. If they had made him bisexual, Iíd feel the exact same way. But understand thisóa show needs positive ratings or it will be canceled. Sure, it would have been braver to make John bi, but the show would not last, and all of you know this. Middle America gets turned off by gay characters and they watch the most TV. I happen to have grown up in a city with the largest gay population per capita, and it isnít San Francisco. Itís close to Middle Americaóhas ďAmericaís TeamĒóbut Iím getting off point. Ratings are what keeps a show on TV, not controversy. And ultimately, Johnís sexuality never played a big part of HELLBLAZER at all. In maybe less than 10 issues out of 300. Thatís 1/3 of 1% (though I suck at maths).

I know this might seem like a defeat to those who feel invested in the portrayal of a fictional characterís sexuality. But it isnít a defeat at alló because for everything he is or represents, he is just a fictional character. A collective figment of our imaginations. A cool one, but a figment nonetheless. And heís cool no matter whom he shags, bird or bloke.

Cheers!

PS: wasnít Will & Grace on NBC? I donít think NBC is homophobic.

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#23 Christian

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 07:14 PM

Goofy.
I'm not going to be happy unless John Constantine is a flaming stereotype, but that's just me. I don't mean John is gay, or John is bi, or even John likes the cock.
I mean John looks and talks like this:
Posted Image

No. I don't think it matters to John Constantine's character. I wouldn't really expect it from the TV show either. I'm much more worried about the tone and direction of the series moving away from Hellblazer's roots, rather than if John smokes dicks or likes the fags....or something, I might have mixed something up there.
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#24 seventhcircle

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:33 PM

View PostChristian, on 15 July 2014 - 07:14 PM, said:

rather than if John smokes dicks or likes the fags....or something, I might have mixed something up there.
I don't know why but this cheap wordplay always makes me happy.
I could not tell if they have ruined the show. I will give my Judgement after one season. The top spot on my whishlist is either really good horror or criticism regarding society/ politics, if they do like a combination of that I would propably jizz my pants, regardless if there is any on screen sexy time. If John has as much Sex as Sly Stallone in his complete career in the moving pictures, then i will give like zero fucks to that fact.

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#25 seventhcircle

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 08:45 PM

View PostJames, on 15 July 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

View PostNick Neko, on 14 July 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

I think it takes quite a commitment for one man to have sex with another man.

Has nobody taken this cheap shot yet? Really?
Dunno. For me it is a commitment to have sex with anyone. But I'm a weirdo.

Quote

Of cause you keep going on. We.. we all keep going on. If we stop laughing, than they have won.
[Alfonse. french-german Comedian, 17.11.15]

#26 JohnMcMahon

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:08 PM

View PostA. Heathen, on 15 July 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Yawn.

I hear you, I've a running tab in TweetDeck (I'm an old man, I use old man social media) and I've seen more people expressing outrage at this than have ever read an actual issue of Hellblazer.  Should've kept it to the other thread but that article was retweeted so many times it was doing my nut in, so everyone suffers.
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#27 A. Heathen

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:26 PM

Seriously, let's put all the threads together.
It must be more frequent than the monthly issue reviews.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"But that's the whole point, it's supernatural, these things happen.
It's not supposed to be realistic in that sense."

#28 Christian

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:51 PM

Some people in the LGBT community might be getting upset without really knowing the details. Ugly rumours. I'm sure some people are hearing, "NBC buys rights to cult bi-sexual comic book character John Constantine, and refuse to allow the character to be gay", and are all up in arms.
I'm sure all of them don't realize that bi icon John Constantine is hardly some one that most of them would consider a good representation of LGBT issues. Both because of the homophobic "Ashes and Dust" story-arc, and because John is one of them poseurs, who claims to be bi, while sleeping with more dogs than other men.

Sort of like when the far Right starting foaming at the mouth because they heard Aryan deity Thor was going to be portrayed by a black man in the film. A rumour that wasn't based in any actual good information.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#29 Christian

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

It should probably be read as meant "A man doesn't just decide to have sex with another male because he's just in the mood for sex.", as far as relates to the idea of "I'm not bi. I was just experimenting." or whatever. You must have a sexual attraction to another man if you're making the commitment to have sex with another man.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
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#30 A. Heathen

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 10:46 PM

He must be gay, he shagged a lesbian.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"But that's the whole point, it's supernatural, these things happen.
It's not supposed to be realistic in that sense."

#31 Lou K

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 11:37 PM

View PostJohnMcMahon, on 15 July 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:

I've a running tab in TweetDeck (I'm an old man, I use old man social media)

Fuck I don't know what that is.
In the age of the internet someone's sensibility is ALWAYS being tested.

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#32 Lou K

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Posted 15 July 2014 - 11:40 PM

View PostA. Heathen, on 15 July 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

He must be gay, he shagged a lesbian.

Inception
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#33 Dave

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:55 AM

I have got to wonder,  and I think John made this point earlier, how many of these people who are up in arms over this have actually read an issue of Hellblazer? It can't have been many. John just seems like the straightest bisexual ever.
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#34 Bilirubin

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:14 AM

View PostA. Heathen, on 15 July 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

He must be gay, he shagged a lesbian.
What did he win for that anyway?
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#35 Gwilym

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 04:58 AM

The lesbian-shagging is another moment that really reads as a huge fuck-you to the very people upset by this. The whole reason the woman's upset and vulnerable is because her girlfriend insists on being out and proud, and campaigning for gay rights, whereas she wants to just be a 'normal' woman. Ennis portrays LGBT campaigners as abrasive harpies*, and his John reaps the benefits. Between this and Stanley Manor, it seems completely and utterly absurd to treat the character as even a friend to the LGBT community, let alone part of it. Even Delano's gay characters, darling as they are, are total stereotypes; either mincing effeminate men, or butch women. Or mystical wank fantasies, smearing fruits** on each other's tits before having sex with John.

(The reporter in The Fear Machine is a definite exception; his portrayal is completely positive, aside from perhaps John's hilarious comment about gays being tidy)

But I am aware I'm preaching to the choir here. I'm wondering if maybe I should take advantage of my smooth baritone and do a video about this; my angle would definitely be that non-heterosexuality treated as it is in the books would be a massive step back for media portrayals, not forward. I might not have the click-baiting rhetorical power of the loudest complainers, but I do have the advantage of actually having read some of the damn things. My decent-ish knowledge of Azzarello and Ennis would help too, because of how many of their own distinct foibles they brought to the series.

Were there any non-hetero characters in Carey's run? He's usually decent enough with writing them, but he has hinted at gayness being a reaction to sexual abuse a handful of times.

*he does this a lot. Remember Preacher's I WANT COCK!!! bit? (which I'm sure he cringes at now)

**smearing fruits = anti-gay propaganda
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#36 slinker

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 05:07 AM

i find the smoking ban and name mispronunciation more offensive and they hardly bother me any more. but what concerns me is the beating taken by anyone who makes a case for it not being canon. it's a legitimate case that a one issue writer can't contribute something as controversial and big as a character's sexual orientation--and the past few days it's the single biggest aspect of the character, bigger than anything Ennis, Jenkins, Delano, Carey or Milligan came up with. And pointing it out does not make you bi-phobic, it's insane how fucking rabid these people are getting on tumblr anyway.

Demon Chas08, if you do post that quote, post the edited version. because homeslice got a bit overwhelmed by all the hate mail. and had to clarify his stance. then the haters started bitching about clarification. he got 3 rational responses vs 40 that were "fuck you you biphobic asshole!" and variations of same. he sent me copies of some of the more outrageous ones.
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#37 seventhcircle

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:09 AM

View Postslinker, on 16 July 2014 - 05:07 AM, said:

Demon Chas08, if you do post that quote, post the edited version. because homeslice got a bit overwhelmed by all the hate mail. and had to clarify his stance. then the haters started bitching about clarification. he got 3 rational responses vs 40 that were "fuck you you biphobic asshole!" and variations of same. he sent me copies of some of the more outrageous ones.

What? You can't use your sexual orientation as a weapon, thats just... awful.
I think we should build a countercase here. Something along the lines of: Johns one true thing is conning people, he gets more off by it than by anything else. The more powerful and bad those poeple (and things) are the more orgasmic he feals afterwards. Thats why there was always this weird tension and mutual obsession with the First of the Fallen. There is no bigger more powerful asshole in the entire universe. Thats why none of his relationships worked and thats why manor was so easy for him to do. I am aware that it's a pile of crap, but I found the idea amusing. John Constantine, Sexual Orientation: Con Man.

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#38 JohnMcMahon

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:51 AM

View PostDave, on 16 July 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

I have got to wonder,  and I think John made this point earlier, how many of these people who are up in arms over this have actually read an issue of Hellblazer? It can't have been many. John just seems like the straightest bisexual ever.

Agree with all of that, however I can totally understand those whose sexual identity (and that wording would probably cause a brutally bloody conflict across half of the internets) is not adequately represented (or even acknowledged!) in pop culture entertainment rowing in behind issues like this and joining the chorus of disgust.  

It's not actually about John Constantine, it's a much bigger issue but the simple fact is that Hellblazer ran for 300 issues and I'm pretty sure that if you read only 298 of them you wouldn't know that he's had a few relationships with men.

Wouldn't it have been great if, say, seven episodes in John just happened to make an off-the-cuff comment about an old boyfriend - very much in the way that it was handled in the comics oh so long ago ?  It's not a big deal, just part of who he is, nothing to see here but now it's a whole thing.  Well, on the internet, anyway.
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#39 James

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:45 AM

View PostGwilym, on 16 July 2014 - 04:58 AM, said:

*he does this a lot. Remember Preacher's I WANT COCK!!! bit? (which I'm sure he cringes at now)

If you read Ennis's Kev miniseries, it becomes apparent that Ennis had something of an epiphany regarding gay men and women and is now embarassed to hell by all that business. Doesn't change what he's already written, though, of course.

I think there was a lesbian couple in Jenkins's run that were just ordinary people, but he also wrote a story that had a lesbian ordering child porn from Amsterdam, so that probably cancels it out. Gaiman's one-shot had a lesbian couple who were presented as ordinary folks, too, and I think that ish also has John telling off a London cabbie for spouting homophobic bullshit.

Quote

But I am aware I'm preaching to the choir here. I'm wondering if maybe I should take advantage of my smooth baritone and do a video about this; my angle would definitely be that non-heterosexuality treated as it is in the books would be a massive step back for media portrayals, not forward. I might not have the click-baiting rhetorical power of the loudest complainers, but I do have the advantage of actually having read some of the damn things. My decent-ish knowledge of Azzarello and Ennis would help too, because of how many of their own distinct foibles they brought to the series.

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Were there any non-hetero characters in Carey's run?

Not any prominent ones that I can recall. There was a gay couple in Red Sepulchre, but they were murdered before the story began.

Quote

He's usually decent enough with writing them, but he has hinted at gayness being a reaction to sexual abuse a handful of times.

Whuh....?

#40 James

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:51 AM

View PostJohnMcMahon, on 16 July 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Wouldn't it have been great if, say, seven episodes in John just happened to make an off-the-cuff comment about an old boyfriend - very much in the way that it was handled in the comics oh so long ago ?  

Probably would only add fuel to the flames. 'Oh, so they'll pay lip service but fob us off with real relationships? THIS IS WORSE THAN DRESDEN!' It's hard not to read a lot of this fury as deeply disingenuous, and you should never underestimate the power of the rabble-rouser to find fault in anything.

Does Abhi still come here? He could write volumes about this.




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