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Marvel's One World Order


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#21 JasonT

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 05:55 AM

I dunno what a Captain America comic is supposed to feel like: my experience of the character is mostly from the 60s cartoon, which I can't even remember. Or something. I just thought Sam Wilson Captain America #1 was beautifully plotted, structured, drawn and coloured.

Never mind whether he's a big player or not -- in the political climate of 2015 Cap stands up for desperate migrants and facepunches the clowns who offer them hatred. What could be more Captain America than that?

Edited by JasonT, 27 October 2015 - 09:21 PM.


#22 dogpoet

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 07:51 PM

Are you sure that's the '60s cartoon? The one I remember looked like it was done with cardboard cut outs...

Christian: I think a lot of the older comics (and you could actually make a case for Englehart's stuff on this) treats the character as the better sort of vaguely progressive conservative, rather than a reactionary asshat who feels that the end of feudalism was a bad move. That's one of the things I like about him, if I'm honest: he is on the other side, but he's not bending over backwards to defend the indefensible. There's a type of conservative who's preferable to the single issue whiners who make the left look like a shower of halfwits, and that's where Steve Rogers is supposed to be coming from. The Dwight Eisenhower/Abe Lincoln school of conservative, dig?

#23 JasonT

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 09:25 PM

View Postdogpoet, on 27 October 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

Are you sure that's the '60s cartoon? The one I remember looked like it was done with cardboard cut outs...

I was praising the current comic, not the cartoon show. I've edited the post above to make it less misleading. :smile:  Thanks for the tip-off.

#24 Christian

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Posted 27 October 2015 - 10:19 PM

I'm not sure, Dog. I think different writers write Steve Rogers in different ways, with a core belief system, which is the inherent goodness of democracy. He can be written as more liberal or more conservative, depending on the writers' views, but he's usually going to have a vague sort of moderate view-point. He's above partisan politics, boiling the concept of "America" down to certain core beliefs, based in equality of human beings and their free will.
It's hard to label Englehart's Cap as a Conservative, because of the story-arc where he confronts the 1950s Captain America. Englehart had Steve Rogers say that the version of the character from the 1950s is out-dated and wrong.
The 1950s brand of Conservative found homosexuality to be morally wrong. The J.M. DeMatteis Captain America wrote Steve Rogers as someone who had no problem being friends with a gay man.
As vile as the Christian fundies are in 2015 and as much as modern Repubs try to appeal to the Christian fundies to get votes, the facts remain that you're far more likely to find modern Conservatives who don't have a problem with gay marriage, where in the 1950s, I seriously doubt you could find one Conservative who would agree that homosexuality was "normal". I think that's important to remember.
Are there elements of Steve Rogers' personality that seems Conservative to a social liberal? Sure. He's a man who came of age in the 1940s and joined the military, and woke up again in the 1960s, to see the world looking very different, socially.

My personal view of Steve Rogers is defined by the Mark Gruenwald run. I don't feel it was the greatest run on Cap ever, although it certainly had its moments. I don't think that it was the greatest characterization of a character ever done, because Gruenwald basically wrote Rogers as some sort of Superman boy scout type. But, what I feel Gruenwald did best was to show the inner nature of Captain America and what that role meant to Steve Rogers. I'm explicitly looking at the Super-Patriot story-arc when I say this, I should say. When Ronald Reagan decided that Steve Rogers, since he was Captain America, should be working for the federal government. Steve Rogers refused and decided that he could no longer represent America as Captain America at that point. He gave up the identity of Captain America. The Super-Patriot took up the job of Captain America, becoming more of the "grim 'n' gritty" type of hero that the '80s was glorifying with all the vigilante types who were going to get "tough on crime", and to be damned with the rule of law that protects criminals until proven guilty in a fair court of law.
Why I like that interpretation of Cap is because it put him above the political landscape. It didn't matter what the government wanted him to do, he refused to compromise his ideals. I argued about this story-arc with a Conservative on the internet. He complained that Rogers quit being Captain America before he even heard what the government wanted him to do. I replied that it didn't matter if the government only wanted him to walk little old ladies across the street, he felt it was the government over-stepping its authority.
Steve Rogers represents the rights of all the people, not any particular government.
It informed his views during Civil War, where he didn't care if it was his buddy Tony Stark in the White House, he was opposed to the infringement on civil liberties that Stark was pursuing in the name of "safety".

So, that's how I see Steve Rogers, and why I have such a problem with him being written as someone who is willing to work with the government now.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
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#25 JasonT

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 07:21 AM

I guess as he got older he realised he needed the pension and medical plan. :wink2:

#26 dogpoet

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 12:44 PM

:biggrin:
Christian, gotcha.

#27 Christian

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 10:52 PM

Sell-out!
He was in the military during WWII, he should have those already. Damn VA scandal.
That's the real story FOX should be covering. "Obama almost let Captain America die!".
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#28 seventhcircle

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 07:38 AM

obligatory: thanks obama

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Of cause you keep going on. We.. we all keep going on. If we stop laughing, than they have won.
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#29 Christian

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:25 PM

Extraordinary X-Men #1 (by Jeff Lemire)-Oh wow, the X-Men are so depressing now. Thanks to the Terrigen mists, mutants are being sterilized. As they say in the book, "The mutants that exist now are all that the world will ever see." The slow death of the X-franchise and replacement of it with Inhumans, unless there's a better movie deal made. Who ever expected to see this day? This is only a few years after the events of House of M and "No More Mutants", then the birth of Hope, and suddenly, mutants could reproduce again. Now, here we are again with mutants being an endangered species again. Mutants are more hated now than ever before! This should be a yearly quote from the X-Men books, I hear it so much. This is thanks to "what Cyclops did". What did he do, you may ask? No idea, because Bendis failed to show anything happening in Uncanny X-Men #600, so the book is picking up on some big event that never happened. Meanwhile, Cyclops is still dead from Secret Wars. If you want to read a really depressing comic book that's a shell of its former self, pick up X-Men. Marvel needs to do a mercy killing, but the franchise still is worth a little bit, so Marvel isn't getting rid of X-Men immediately. They want to make the fans stop caring, with a long death.
Oh, and there's a pointless ret-conning of Colossus' origin. I always liked that Colossus' parents just accepted him, because his power made life easier on the farm. No one ostracized Colossus for being a mutant. So, they've got to change that now, and say that Colossus' father abused him for being a mutant. Can't let any mutant have a happy childhood!

Hercules #1 (by Dan Abnett)-This was pretty good. It's fun and a little bit sad at the same time. Hercules is going to stop the ancient threats to humanity that everyone else has forgotten about. Gilgamesh lives on Hercules' couch now, in a state of depression, because the world doesn't need their type of heroes anymore, the world has science heroes now. Hercules is also strongly hinted as being bisexual, due to his cultural origins, after all. Yeah, I think this book is worth checking out again.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#30 Lou K

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 07:37 PM

X Men always seems to be recycling the same stories and ideas.

I think Marvel is trying to kill the book so as to dampen the movie franchise.
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#31 dogpoet

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 08:18 PM

Most likely, yep.
Are there any other filmed Marvels where you can't buy an action figure that looks like whoever they cast as Genericman?

#32 Christian

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 08:34 PM

Fantastic Four also fell by the wayside due to the movie franchise stuff. X-Men is worth more than FF though, so Marvel is killing it off, rather than just getting rid of it. There's no more Fantastic Four comic book. Reed and Sue are expected to die at the end of Secret Wars (if that's ever published!), Thing is now a member of the Guardians, and Human Torch is featured in the Inhumans comic.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#33 dogpoet

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:08 PM

They're not wiping the slate to doi a reboot when the new film comes out then? This one is Fox rather than Disney?

#34 Christian

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 09:46 PM

Ut-oh! I sense Secret Wars II on the horizon, in order to reboot the entire Marvel Universe to pave the way for a new Fantastic Four launch!
The ending of the last Fantastic Four series was open-ended, there was no hint that it was the end of the comic book forever. I expected there would be a relaunch after Secret Wars, but it looks like the big changes in the characters' status quo will take place in Secret Wars.
Dr. Doom is still around in the "All New, All Different Marvel". Reed and Sue are not.
Well, Ultimate Reed Richards has shown up, but he's a villain, and not related to Earth-616 Reed Richards anymore, at all. He's part Celestial now or something, not sure exactly.

Looking on Wikipedia, the newest FF film was released by FOX. I think it was more based on the Ultimate Fantastic Four comic too (even though that's been canceled for years now, and won't be coming back). It says there is a sequel planned, but that won't be until 2017. And, the film had poor performance at the box office, so FOX might not even bother with the sequel.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#35 dogpoet

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Posted 06 November 2015 - 12:58 PM

Which

View PostChristian, on 05 November 2015 - 09:46 PM, said:

Looking on Wikipedia, the newest FF film was released by FOX. I think it was more based on the Ultimate Fantastic Four comic too (even though that's been canceled for years now, and won't be coming back). It says there is a sequel planned, but that won't be until 2017. And, the film had poor performance at the box office, so FOX might not even bother with the sequel.
Which is probably what Marvel are hoping for at this point.

#36 Christian

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Posted 12 November 2015 - 08:49 PM

All New, All Different Avengers #1-Remember when the Avengers died fighting Onslaught and were really in another dimension? They triumphantly returned to the Marvel Universe as part of "Heroes Return", with a new Avengers #1? The first new #1 for the Avengers since the initial comic in 1963. Well, this sort of feels like that, without any of the charm or excitement! That's a shame, because Waid could do as well bringing the Avengers back as Busiek did in the late-1990s, but this is a different Marvel Universe. One where most of the books read the same, as well-written, but without any real sense of identity. The book really is not interesting. I also love how Tony Stark says that there is currently no official Avengers team, and must make excuses for why the 16 other comics on the stands under the title "Avengers" don't count as an official Avengers team. Well, why is Marvel calling all these books Avengers then?
It's a shame that the Waid who was writing Daredevil isn't being allowed to write this book.
Final word: Yawn.

Ultimates #1-This is actually quite good. Don't let the title fool you, this isn't Marvel attempting to revamp the Ultimate Universe again. Marvel is just reusing the name. They're really the Ultimate Avengers (no, not the Ultimate Universe version, again). They're the heroes who handle the ultimate threats to reality. Really, Marvel just wants to keep a trademark, not that the Ultimate Universe is gone. The team is led by the Black Panther. My one nitpick with the book is that Al Ewing writes a pretty unlikeable Black Panther. Why must the Black Panther be an unlikeable character at Marvel now? He never was before.
This is really just Al Ewing's chance to get cosmic and use wild concepts. I've been a fan of Ewing's work at comics since he came to American comics, and this is the one Marvel book he's currently writing that lives us to the high stands I've set for Ewing. New Avengers does not read like a book that Ewing would write. Contest of Champions seems to be something Marvel is publishing to push a video game line, or something. Ultimates is Ewing writing a comic book series I want to read.
This one goes on my "good" list.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#37 JasonT

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 07:40 AM

Did you ever track down any of Al's 2000AD work?

#38 Lou K

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 01:41 PM

Anybody grab Lemire's Hawkeye? I loved the Fraction run but really trying to keep my pull list thin.
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#39 Christian

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 07:33 PM

Not most of it, no, Jason. It's nearly impossible to come across 2000 AD over here. We got all the classic stuff from the 1980s with the Quality Comics reprints, but they stopped publishing in the 1990s. Even the Trades are from a British publisher, so I'd have to pay international shipping charges to get a copy.

Lou-Yeah. This is volumn 2 that is starting this week. There was a volumn 1, which I think only lasted for five issues because of Secret Wars. I really enjoyed the first Lemire series, probably even more than Fraction's actually. But, I don't think most people would feel that way. I don't think I loved Fraction's Hawkeye as much as most. I liked it, but didn't love it. Lemire's first series has flashbacks to Hawkeye's childhood, with his brother, when they run away from their abusive father and join a carnival. It looks like this series is going to feature scenes from Hawkeye's future, after Lady Hawkeye has taken over as a superhero while Clint is mostly retired. For the present day plot, you need to have to read voumn 1 before picking up volumn 2 issue #1 though. Maybe it's something you could get as a Trade.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#40 Lou K

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Posted 13 November 2015 - 07:50 PM

I'll have to look into that. Yeah, I do seem to recall he already launched Hawkeye so when I saw a new #1 I was like WTF
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