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Has NBC ruined 'Constantine' by straightwashing its protagonist?


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#41 Gwilym

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:10 AM

View PostJames, on 16 July 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Quote

He's usually decent enough with writing them, but he has hinted at gayness being a reaction to sexual abuse a handful of times.

Whuh....?

Turns out I can only think of one. Sorry, the other I'd been thinking of was by Jamie Delano. And two doesn't really constitute a handful, so I shouldn't've said that.

It's in Crossing Midnight (which is excellent, by the way). I forget her name, but one of the Ueno Park guards. She's a huge butch lesbian; not a caricature; very well-written. But you find out she'd been repeatedly gang-raped in her home town. It's intended more as the reason she's such a hard-ass (which is problematic in its own way) rather than the reason she's gay, but it still dovetailed uncomfortably close to the idea that women who like women only like women because they don't like men and they only don't like men because they've been abused. He didn't state it outright, and he may not have even meant it. But ideas like that are so totally inculcated that without a statement to the contrary, it's the message that comes across.

(Just to correct myself; the act of her telling the story was completely a character moment, and I'd say that was the main intent of it (same with the Delano character too). But the two implications I mentioned are definitely there.)

Delano's character was pretty much the same story, just with one rapist instead of many.

I'll have to read Kev. That sounds quite interesting. Parts of The Boys address laddish homophobia head-on too, and while at first it comes across as Ennis being defensive, he gets better. Maybe I should piece together an Ennis And The Gays timeline.

View PostJames, on 16 July 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

It's hard not to read a lot of this fury as deeply disingenuous

I'm afraid I think so too. It's a damn shame, because their point is such an honourable one, but it just so often seems mired in mob mentality, which stops anything useful actually happening. Including basic discourse; in its place we just get a chorus line of jerking knees. It's a waste.
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#42 Demon Chas08

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:52 AM

View PostBilirubin, on 16 July 2014 - 04:14 AM, said:

View PostA. Heathen, on 15 July 2014 - 10:46 PM, said:

He must be gay, he shagged a lesbian.
What did he win for that anyway?
A black eye and a possible kick in the balls once he got home?
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#43 Demon Chas08

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 12:11 PM

View PostDave, on 16 July 2014 - 12:55 AM, said:

I have got to wonder,  and I think John made this point earlier, how many of these people who are up in arms over this have actually read an issue of Hellblazer? It can't have been many. John just seems like the straightest bisexual ever.

One regular poster over at Oh No They Didn't! admitted to reading the Bi bit on some website that lists LGBT comic characters. Of course I pointed out the facts but homeboy wasn't hearing any of it.
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#44 James

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:02 PM

View PostGwilym, on 16 July 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

It's in Crossing Midnight (which is excellent, by the way). I forget her name, but one of the Ueno Park guards. She's a huge butch lesbian; not a caricature; very well-written. But you find out she'd been repeatedly gang-raped in her home town. It's intended more as the reason she's such a hard-ass (which is problematic in its own way) rather than the reason she's gay, but it still dovetailed uncomfortably close to the idea that women who like women only like women because they don't like men and they only don't like men because they've been abused. He didn't state it outright, and he may not have even meant it. But ideas like that are so totally inculcated that without a statement to the contrary, it's the message that comes across.

I don't think I read past the second trade (I left the UK and found it near impossible to find trades in the place I moved to), so I can't really comment. I think he's one of the good guys, though.

Quote

Delano's character was pretty much the same story, just with one rapist instead of many.

Which story was that? Just out of interest. Delano usually comes across as pretty right-on, but he's done some odd things in his comics before. Outlaw Nation had a bisexual character who casually went around raping people, and whose sexuality was played out as a symptom (or aspect) of his dissolute, hedonistic nature.

Quote

I'll have to read Kev. That sounds quite interesting. Parts of The Boys address laddish homophobia head-on too, and while at first it comes across as Ennis being defensive, he gets better. Maybe I should piece together an Ennis And The Gays timeline.

I don't think it's homophobia specifically, but an ingrained discomfort about anybody who diverges from sexual and gender norms, or even from the laddish standards of working-class Northern Irish life. It's all throughout his earlier works. Look at Hellblazer - the vampires are bisexual psychopaths, Nigel's a skinny geek who writes girly poetry... it's sad, really.

#45 Gwilym

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 02:57 PM

View PostJames, on 16 July 2014 - 02:02 PM, said:

View PostGwilym, on 16 July 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

It's in Crossing Midnight (which is excellent, by the way). I forget her name, but one of the Ueno Park guards. She's a huge butch lesbian; not a caricature; very well-written. But you find out she'd been repeatedly gang-raped in her home town. It's intended more as the reason she's such a hard-ass (which is problematic in its own way) rather than the reason she's gay, but it still dovetailed uncomfortably close to the idea that women who like women only like women because they don't like men and they only don't like men because they've been abused. He didn't state it outright, and he may not have even meant it. But ideas like that are so totally inculcated that without a statement to the contrary, it's the message that comes across.

I don't think I read past the second trade (I left the UK and found it near impossible to find trades in the place I moved to), so I can't really comment. I think he's one of the good guys, though.

It got cancelled, so there are actually only three trades. It ends well, though. And I absolutely agree; he's up there with Delano (and Gaiman) as far as big-hearted acceptance goes, and I suppose in some ways he's more valuable, being so much more prolific and accessible. And like Delano, the odd wee slip-ups stand out only because he's usually so good about things.

He's also quite self-aware; there was that Hellblazer story that I assume looked fine in writing but visually turned out as Angie running around in her underwear and screaming and falling over a lot. The very next issue opened with Gemma making some pretty trenchant comments about lazy misogyny in the guise of genre entertainment.

Quote

Quote

Delano's character was pretty much the same story, just with one rapist instead of many.

Which story was that? Just out of interest. Delano usually comes across as pretty right-on, but he's done some odd things in his comics before. Outlaw Nation had a bisexual character who casually went around raping people, and whose sexuality was played out as a symptom (or aspect) of his dissolute, hedonistic nature.

Yeah, that was really strange. I thought he was well-written despite that, and I found him pretty downright hilarious, but it still felt surprisingly phobic.

The story is his novel, Book Thirteen. Which I absolutely love, and the character I'm talking about is probably my favourite.

Quote

I don't think it's homophobia specifically, but an ingrained discomfort about anybody who diverges from sexual and gender norms, or even from the laddish standards of working-class Northern Irish life. It's all throughout his earlier works. Look at Hellblazer - the vampires are bisexual psychopaths, Nigel's a skinny geek who writes girly poetry... it's sad, really.

That's a better way to put it, yeah. It's funny; Boy's Games and Man's Work had all the subtlety of an Upworthy article, but with the background hum of casual bigotry that was only a few issues away from kicking in, I guess it had some pretty relevant messages.
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#46 A. Heathen

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 05:33 PM

In summary they should make Zed a bisexual in the teleovision series.
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#47 seventhcircle

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:37 PM

View PostA. Heathen, on 16 July 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

In summary they should make Zed a bisexual in the teleovision series.

That would propably be not the dumbest move. But will it appeace the mob? Also writing an actual bi character into your story includes the possibility to do it wrong and offend some of the bisexual folks that care about the show, i would say at this point you take a risk no matter wich way you go.

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#48 slinker

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:53 PM

Whenever they post an image as "proof" he was bi, it's always the John and Stanley kissing pic. I just want to yell "Turn the page, John is beating the fuck out of Stanley with a whip and enjoying it because he hates Stanley. He's conning him as a revenge plot! Turn the bloody page!"

In fact, the only images they ever use the the laundromat image from John Smith and Stanley Manor and John kissing. That's it. there isn't anything else.

Think about all the fans who had no idea John Smith ever wrote one issue of hellblazer and dropped Azz's run prior to Ashes and Dust. Like it was said earlier, you could read all but less than a handful of issues and never know he was "bi." But #51 was included in Bloodlines, so I'd wager many of the John is bi fans think Ennis wrote it because he wrote all the other issues in that trade. That's where some of this comes from, confusion about who wrote the laundromat issue. Would they change their minds if they really read the Azz story AND realized the writer who wrote #51 never wrote anything else on Hellblazer? And then it depends on how you define "canon." Is canon mainly stuff from the long-term writers? or is it all encompassing? The editors didn't see fit to remove it, so that's a solid argument for it being canon.

I don't remember which one of you wrote it, but I agree that the issue to them is that bi-characters don't get fair representation on TV and that's really what they are upset about because John is cool, people love to identify with him. But in fairness, bisexuality is not fairly nor is it accurately represented in Hellblazer, either. By his actions in the one story in which we see him engaging in a bisexual relationship, deviant and negative are accurate terms, while positive, unique, loving all are terms you couldn't possibly use. They are mistaken, like many southern christians who go to church and hear what a preacher says the bible says but never read the bible themselves. They go by what this one person said and get all angry just as the preacher does. Approves what the preacher approves and shows hate for what the preacher hates. This is too similar to the John is bi craze. Few of them have read it, and if they post the John/Manor pics, they definitely did not read it.

is this straight washing or bi erasure?
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#49 Christian

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:33 PM

I don't know why you're so caught up on John Smith writing that issue. It's part of the Official Hellblazer Series. It's not as if Smith wrote an Elseworlds story called "John Shags a Dude". Smith wrote a very good Hellblazer story, he did well with John Constantine's characterization. This Forum voted that issue the best "fill-in" story of Hellblazer. I absolutely love that story, and not because it has anything to do with bi-sexuality.
Yes. It is canon. You can bring some guy in off the street who never wrote before in his life, have him write an issue of an on-going comic book series, and if he says "Batman is mentally handicapped", and the editors do not remove this, then it counts as canon. Editors have the final say of what gets included or not included in the story, and once it is published, it is part of the canon. Unless a writer later comes along and writes a story that explains why John being bi-sexual is not accurate, "John went to the Christian fundie camp and they taught him that bi-sexuality was not normal, and he realizes that he was never actually bi-sexual, and was just a sinner.", then it stands that as far as Hellblazer is concerned, John Constantine is bi-sexual.

I do agree that it was issue #51, so it's not as if that was a major part of John's character from the very beginning, like some people seem to be making it out to be. It was inserted discreetly 51 issues in to the series, and I don't believe it was mentioned again until the Azzarello run. And, very rarely after that.

As far as Ennis, he had a few Punisher stories where anti-gay people are presented in a negative light and the villains of some of the stories. So, either Ennis grew up and got over the hang-ups, or Ennis' un-PC stories shouldn't be considered as actually homophobic. I'm not sure which.
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#50 Christian

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:49 PM

View Postslinker, on 16 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Whenever they post an image as "proof" he was bi, it's always the John and Stanley kissing pic. I just want to yell "Turn the page, John is beating the fuck out of Stanley with a whip and enjoying it because he hates Stanley. He's conning him as a revenge plot! Turn the bloody page!"

I don't remember which one of you wrote it, but I agree that the issue to them is that bi-characters don't get fair representation on TV and that's really what they are upset about because John is cool, people love to identify with him. But in fairness, bisexuality is not fairly nor is it accurately represented in Hellblazer, either. By his actions in the one story in which we see him engaging in a bisexual relationship, deviant and negative are accurate terms, while positive, unique, loving all are terms you couldn't possibly use. They are mistaken, like many southern christians who go to church and hear what a preacher says the bible says but never read the bible themselves. They go by what this one person said and get all angry just as the preacher does. Approves what the preacher approves and shows hate for what the preacher hates. This is too similar to the John is bi craze. Few of them have read it, and if they post the John/Manor pics, they definitely did not read it.

is this straight washing or bi erasure?

I've pointed out, this happens all the time on the internet.
Put in the phrase, "Barack Obama says that all Christians will be sterilized." to Google. I bet you anything you'll get 10,000 hits and you'll see all sorts of people up in arms over this.
Did Obama say this? No.
Is this Obama's agenda? No.
The internet is a place where rumours get started and people get all bent out of shape, because they believe what they read on some web-site they frequent and don't do any fact-checking as to whether it's some thing to actually be concerned about or not.
Think of some thing even crazier if you don't believe me. How about "Satan and space aliens have created a pact to enforce a Communist world government, and all Republicans will be killed." Type it in Google, see what results you get. I bet you'll see some.
So, it's easy to imagine that, as I said, some one posted, "NBC has made it so that popular bi-sexual comic book icon John Constantine cannot be bi on TV show." And, then, every one gets angry, because it sounds like it's anti-gay. They didn't bother to do any fact-checking.

"Ashes and Dust" isn't as easy to define as you're making it though. It's homophobic, I do agree. But, it's not that John hates Manor. It's that John and Manor have a sexual appeal to each other, while at the same time, John hates Manor. It's Azzarello's views on the Batman/Joker dynamic also. Let's not forget that ludicrous bit of story-telling. That Batman and Joker secretly crave each other, while at the same time, they have a deep hatred for each other. The whips and stuff, they're in a S&M club. Manor is in to sado-masochism.
This whole idea that "John is just pulling a con on Manor"...it doesn't work. John is going really far to pull this con. It makes no sense. John has never been so elaborate in the lengths he's gone to to trick someone before. This isn't just a con. John does trick Manon in the end, but he's not just going through the motions sexually with Manor. There's a layer of sexual attraction underneath.
It does paint bi-sexuality as something disturbing and illicit though, I agree about that. It's not a positive portrayal.
But, this whole, "John was just fucking with Manor. It wasn't really sexual on his part." is at the level of, "I'm not bi-sexual. I just went through a phase where I was having sex with men, you know, just because."
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#51 seventhcircle

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:28 PM

View PostChristian, on 16 July 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

View Postslinker, on 16 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Whenever they post an image as "proof" he was bi, it's always the John and Stanley kissing pic. I just want to yell "Turn the page, John is beating the fuck out of Stanley with a whip and enjoying it because he hates Stanley. He's conning him as a revenge plot! Turn the bloody page!"

I don't remember which one of you wrote it, but I agree that the issue to them is that bi-characters don't get fair representation on TV and that's really what they are upset about because John is cool, people love to identify with him. But in fairness, bisexuality is not fairly nor is it accurately represented in Hellblazer, either. By his actions in the one story in which we see him engaging in a bisexual relationship, deviant and negative are accurate terms, while positive, unique, loving all are terms you couldn't possibly use. They are mistaken, like many southern christians who go to church and hear what a preacher says the bible says but never read the bible themselves. They go by what this one person said and get all angry just as the preacher does. Approves what the preacher approves and shows hate for what the preacher hates. This is too similar to the John is bi craze. Few of them have read it, and if they post the John/Manor pics, they definitely did not read it.

is this straight washing or bi erasure?

I've pointed out, this happens all the time on the internet.
Put in the phrase, "Barack Obama says that all Christians will be sterilized." to Google. I bet you anything you'll get 10,000 hits and you'll see all sorts of people up in arms over this.
Did Obama say this? No.
Is this Obama's agenda? No.
The internet is a place where rumours get started and people get all bent out of shape, because they believe what they read on some web-site they frequent and don't do any fact-checking as to whether it's some thing to actually be concerned about or not.
Think of some thing even crazier if you don't believe me. How about "Satan and space aliens have created a pact to enforce a Communist world government, and all Republicans will be killed." Type it in Google, see what results you get. I bet you'll see some.
So, it's easy to imagine that, as I said, some one posted, "NBC has made it so that popular bi-sexual comic book icon John Constantine cannot be bi on TV show." And, then, every one gets angry, because it sounds like it's anti-gay. They didn't bother to do any fact-checking.

"Ashes and Dust" isn't as easy to define as you're making it though. It's homophobic, I do agree. But, it's not that John hates Manor. It's that John and Manor have a sexual appeal to each other, while at the same time, John hates Manor. It's Azzarello's views on the Batman/Joker dynamic also. Let's not forget that ludicrous bit of story-telling. That Batman and Joker secretly crave each other, while at the same time, they have a deep hatred for each other. The whips and stuff, they're in a S&M club. Manor is in to sado-masochism.
This whole idea that "John is just pulling a con on Manor"...it doesn't work. John is going really far to pull this con. It makes no sense. John has never been so elaborate in the lengths he's gone to to trick someone before. This isn't just a con. John does trick Manon in the end, but he's not just going through the motions sexually with Manor. There's a layer of sexual attraction underneath.
It does paint bi-sexuality as something disturbing and illicit though, I agree about that. It's not a positive portrayal.
But, this whole, "John was just fucking with Manor. It wasn't really sexual on his part." is at the level of, "I'm not bi-sexual. I just went through a phase where I was having sex with men, you know, just because."
Damn. Now I know why I joint this forum. I don't want to come over like some sort of kissass, but you are right I suppose and I be damned if I do not reconsider some of what you said. None the less: What do you suppose the show-writers should do to appeace the raging mob. As far as I can think right now, they can't come up with anything that would bring some peace to the hearts of those whoms hearts are filled with fury.

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#52 slinker

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:49 PM

All I'm saying is that how can a one off writer have so much sway over a character? More than Ennis, Delano or Carey in the minds of these people. to them, it's the only hellblazer issue that matters.

As for the long con vs Stanley, it's NOT feasable for someone to go to that length for revenge. that's the reason i hate the story. i don't think it's nearly as sophisticated as you do. And i do think people can be bi-sexual or experimental as a phase. it's a maturation process for some people. yes, people are born that way, but some people are just experimental. it does happen. I know a ton of people are are my age and atill bi-sexual. I know a ton of people who were bi-sexual as teens and 20s who simply aren't now, one being a close friend of mine. He never engaged in anything hardcore, it was mainly petting and such, the occasional handie whatever. But he said he didn't feel attracted to guys back then, he did it because he was horny and the other person was willing to join on. See, I don't even consider that bisexual at all, personally, neither does he, because since he turned 16 or 17 it was just girls from then on. So was it a phase? or is he a self loathing bisexual in denial who doesn't happen to be attracted to men at all? Of course it was a phase because you can't define any one person by such a broadly interpreted word. Is he a former bisexual? a reformed bisexual? A tourist? Was it temporary bisexuality? pseudobisexuality? Munchausen's bisexuality by proxy? Cockholme syndrome? Some people think they might like something, they try it a few times and it isn't for them and they never do it again. But are they then defined forever by something they did 3 or 4 times when they were young, not even adults yet? How would you define that? Is he still bisexual if he never does it again.

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#53 seventhcircle

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:35 AM

well thats some very dangerous grounds you are moving on. First of, you could argue, that someone whom has been bi-curious if you will, is bi-sexual by default. second you could argue from the point that sexuality is a multi-dimensional space and everyone is moving in that space somewhere but to establish oneself as vanilla heterosexual (and maybe homosexual in newer days) is somthing forced on you by the established society. The main 'problem' with bi-sexuality is that it is not clearly defined and that some define everyone as bisexual to some degree by default. I agree that there should be no checkbox for anyone to fill out if he/she/something else is a certain category, the simple problem with it would be, that you define yourself cause of peer pressure, you may be not. On the other hand, networks are not as progressive as that, they need a stereotype, they need a checkbox for like everything. The debate about gender identity is imho just bad timing on a show that will have it's difficulty surviving even without it. It's unfair. I would wish some people would understand the right point in time on when to pick a fight...

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#54 Demon Chas08

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:36 AM

View Postslinker, on 16 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

Whenever they post an image as "proof" he was bi, it's always the John and Stanley kissing pic. I just want to yell "Turn the page, John is beating the fuck out of Stanley with a whip and enjoying it because he hates Stanley. He's conning him as a revenge plot! Turn the bloody page!"

In fact, the only images they ever use the the laundromat image from John Smith and Stanley Manor and John kissing. That's it. there isn't anything else.

Think about all the fans who had no idea John Smith ever wrote one issue of hellblazer and dropped Azz's run prior to Ashes and Dust. Like it was said earlier, you could read all but less than a handful of issues and never know he was "bi." But #51 was included in Bloodlines, so I'd wager many of the John is bi fans think Ennis wrote it because he wrote all the other issues in that trade. That's where some of this comes from, confusion about who wrote the laundromat issue. Would they change their minds if they really read the Azz story AND realized the writer who wrote #51 never wrote anything else on Hellblazer? And then it depends on how you define "canon." Is canon mainly stuff from the long-term writers? or is it all encompassing? The editors didn't see fit to remove it, so that's a solid argument for it being canon.

I don't remember which one of you wrote it, but I agree that the issue to them is that bi-characters don't get fair representation on TV and that's really what they are upset about because John is cool, people love to identify with him. But in fairness, bisexuality is not fairly nor is it accurately represented in Hellblazer, either. By his actions in the one story in which we see him engaging in a bisexual relationship, deviant and negative are accurate terms, while positive, unique, loving all are terms you couldn't possibly use. They are mistaken, like many southern christians who go to church and hear what a preacher says the bible says but never read the bible themselves. They go by what this one person said and get all angry just as the preacher does. Approves what the preacher approves and shows hate for what the preacher hates. This is too similar to the John is bi craze. Few of them have read it, and if they post the John/Manor pics, they definitely did not read it.

is this straight washing or bi erasure?

The reissued version of Bloodlines, right? I still have the first version sans #51
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#55 Christian

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 12:42 AM

Seventh-I think people have to learn to deal with it. Either watch the show, or do not. If you want to boycott the show because John isn't bi, it's a free country. I'm not saying you specifically, but anyone who feels that way.

Slinker-Sure, someone can experiment, but it's entirely possible to be bi-sexual and have not had any relations with anyone but women for the majority of your life. You can still be bi. It doesn't mean they outgrew it. You don't have to sleep with guys half the week and girls the other to be properly bi-sexual.
Some people seem to think bi-sexuality is a bad word.
If you truly experiment and it doesn't turn you on or whatever, I'm not saying anything about that.
Just this idea that John used to date Manor, it feel through, Manor's out for revenge, John gets back with him, fucks with his head...but it's not bi-sexual, it's just a game....it seems like people are trying to explain away the fact that John did have some sexual attraction for Manor.
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#56 James

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 01:19 AM

View Postseventhcircle, on 16 July 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

View PostA. Heathen, on 16 July 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

In summary they should make Zed a bisexual in the teleovision series.

That would propably be not the dumbest move.

Nooooo, it would be a terrible move. The reason why John being bisexual is interesting and exciting is that he's the protagonist, he's male and he's a non-traditional queer figure in the media (being masculine and rough-around-the-edges).

If they make the totally hot female sidekick bisexual (which, to be fair, she was in the comics) then it comes across as a nasty combination of tokenism and pandering to a (perceived) horny male audience, and fits a well-worn character trope.

Better to make Chas bi or gay. A big, monster-fighting bear.

#57 A. Heathen

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 06:36 AM

Good idea, James.
Perhaps everyone in the series should be either gay, bisexual, a dog-fucker or have a tattoo of a tree on their arse.

Regarding the Azzarello story, as I observed at the time, this is a story where various people give an account of what happened that night.
And the accounts all differ, and can be seen to be influenced by who is telling the story.
A classic POV thriller, where we are not told what actually happened.

(SPOILER) [ Spoiler : John Dies At The End. ]

(not a SPOILER) [ Spoiler : Not really. He just ends up Liverpool. Just like Pete Milligan's ending. ]

What we really need to do is (sort of SPOILER) [ Spoiler : check the undead tumblrs and see if they are up in arms about John not being dead in the TV series. ]
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"But that's the whole point, it's supernatural, these things happen.
It's not supposed to be realistic in that sense."

#58 JohnMcMahon

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 07:33 AM

I kind of want to get a cross-section of the more vocal outraged types in a room somewhere with a few complimentary copies of Highwater, just so I can experience their calm and measured reaction to a fully realised bi-sexual John Constantine fucking a (willing) dog's face,
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#59 Gwilym

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:32 AM

Which makes me curious; I found Highwater (edit: Good Intentions, actually; Highwater was the KKK one) quite vague and ambiguous about what exactly happened with the dog, but I've seen a lot of people talk specifics. Crappy as the story was, I might have to re-read that bit just to see whether or not I'm super-dense about canine sex acts. Which I think is valuable information about oneself.

edit: OK not ambiguous at all. Maybe I just blocked it out. Still a crappy story.
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#60 JasonT

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 09:57 AM

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