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Hoping Rebirth John won't be a fairy


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#21 Gwilym

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 02:58 AM

I wasn't wild about this thread continuing, since it could easily turn into trash-talking someone who isn't here, but I'm glad it was you doing it, LC. It's possible that it's as simple as you not being a straight white male, but your angles on things are always interesting. Plus you write long posts so it's kind of a feast.

I also think you've also found a point of agreement: the idea that a lot of left-leaning is bogus, and just for show. This is definitely true, and it's just as definitely the reason for anti-left sentiment. When people rail against political correctness, it's usually because they find it dishonest, and a lot of the time it is.
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#22 lady_constantine

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 03:20 AM

View PostGwilym, on 29 June 2016 - 02:58 AM, said:

I wasn't wild about this thread continuing, since it could easily turn into trash-talking someone who isn't here, but I'm glad it was you doing it, LC. It's possible that it's as simple as you not being a straight white male, but your angles on things are always interesting. Plus you write long posts so it's kind of a feast.

I also think you've also found a point of agreement: the idea that a lot of left-leaning is bogus, and just for show. This is definitely true, and it's just as definitely the reason for anti-left sentiment. When people rail against political correctness, it's usually because they find it dishonest, and a lot of the time it is.

thank you and glad we see eye to eye.it's like the false leftist thing is like the elephant in the room no one talks about,it is in fact a very real thing.
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#23 Christian

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 03:43 AM

I think we have to remember what the Left was originally meant to be about, which was economic issues. Class issues and anti-war were the original hallmarks of the Left.
The focus on equality...your personal wealth shouldn't give you a priveleged position...opened the door for equality in other areas to be considered Left-Wing issues, such as race or gender or sexual orientation.
However, I'd say that Idenitity Politics has hijacked the Left. In place of equality for all people, political correctness has taken the place of issues which were the original purpose of the Left....class and anti-war.
I don't believe that issues like racism or sexism should be the sole purview of the Left. I'm sad that these issues have become so politicized. God created all people, so it's sickening to see people on the Right, which is supposed to be the purview of organized religion (another thing I find sad), treating people differently based on race.
I have little doubt that both sides of the Official political parties have come to use these issues to divide the masses, and distract people from the elite. That the Official Left (neoliberals, Democrats in the US) appeal to poltically correct language and the right to abortion as a way to get votes, just as much as the Right panders to organized religion and anti-immigration to manipulate the masses. Not that a woman's right to an abortion isn't an important issue, mind.
Meanwhile, corporations gain ever more power, while millions are fed to the war machine.
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#24 lady_constantine

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 03:42 PM

View PostChristian, on 01 July 2016 - 03:43 AM, said:

I think we have to remember what the Left was originally meant to be about, which was economic issues. Class issues and anti-war were the original hallmarks of the Left.
The focus on equality...your personal wealth shouldn't give you a priveleged position...opened the door for equality in other areas to be considered Left-Wing issues, such as race or gender or sexual orientation.
However, I'd say that Idenitity Politics has hijacked the Left. In place of equality for all people, political correctness has taken the place of issues which were the original purpose of the Left....class and anti-war.
I don't believe that issues like racism or sexism should be the sole purview of the Left. I'm sad that these issues have become so politicized. God created all people, so it's sickening to see people on the Right, which is supposed to be the purview of organized religion (another thing I find sad), treating people differently based on race.
I have little doubt that both sides of the Official political parties have come to use these issues to divide the masses, and distract people from the elite. That the Official Left (neoliberals, Democrats in the US) appeal to poltically correct language and the right to abortion as a way to get votes, just as much as the Right panders to organized religion and anti-immigration to manipulate the masses. Not that a woman's right to an abortion isn't an important issue, mind.
Meanwhile, corporations gain ever more power, while millions are fed to the war machine.

Here's the thing--I'm gonna have to agree to disagree about the racism part.

over here in america ,race pays a large role in class.Essentially people of color were up until maybe 1990's second class citizens.We take pay cuts here for being non-Caucasian and for being females.There is also the fact that after World War 2 there was this mass hysteria to create suburabn sprawls and "the great white flight" and segreggated housing based on race.Race determines your life in america,how quickly or how easy or difficult it is to obtain ctatus and wealth. Same with sex--laws governing women we get lower pays,less promotions therefore affecting our ability to obtain a higher class,unless we marry out of class.

-Race has to be important because race is essential in maintaining social class in america.It goes back to slavery days with "overseer syndrome",which plagues our american police force and underclass white americans,particukarky in the south .But not just black people,but incidently whites,particularly whites of Irish American descent--they were undermined for the longest until around the post prohibition era.But due t them being held back for generations that is why they are most of the white underclass, and that is why people of color are underclassed and it is in effect today because money passes down by generation.

Here is how overseer syndrome works:Instead of helping poor whites,the upperclass turns them against everyone else so everyone stays poor ,them as well,and they get a handful of perks "for whiteness" ,that may or may not [usually don't help] end the cycle of poverty. Essentiall,The Rich [and mostly white] would do this-they have a whole loaf of bread to themselves,give a slice and a half to poor whites,a slice to blacks,half a slice to latinos and around that amount to everyone else. The lower class will be like "Why do I have one slice of bread?",and the wealthy whites sould say"well,we had to give them a slice too.If we didn't have to give it to them,you'd have more",which is bullshit because the wealthy [mostly white---mostly because they are all NOT white] are sitting here with damn near a whole loaf of bread. So yes,racism SHOULD be a core part of Left politics.

It aligns with classism and even poor american whites began to realize this at some point--the black panther party was destroyed because get this guys --it was NOT just about black people! It was about equaity for ALL. There weresupporters from all over the world,other races,whites,latinos asians,it was a humanity thing and not just a race thing , black vs white like people claim.
It's just in america,alot of our most powerful and revered rights activists states side were black people and they lead the way for other people to unite.If all the races unite in amercia,the underclass will overthrow the upperclass and that is a VERY dangerous thing.hat is simply what it is about,all about greed.

As for these "neo liberals",many are in fact racist and classist  and hell,support war anyway,so yes,it has been somewhat diluted from what it was and the anti-war thing has mostly fallen off anyway in this 'age of terrorism'---which is a whole other discussion in itself.I am ironically one of the few liberals who is anti-war as war destroys lives and lines pockets.Most liberals are like "support the veterans",which I agree--but if you didn't go to war in the first place,these veterans would not have be suffering nor would their families,so there's that.

I do agree though ,that feminism should be in it's very own sphere and shouldn't even be political as it is.Feminism is more of a social issue than any thing as women have obtained for the most part,the rights of men.This is an issue of social norms and societal pressure,more so than actually political.Same with sexuality--though I agree same  couples should be given the same legal rights as het couples.


[also -STOP lumping LGBT tgether as it implies we are this loving united front ,when GAY WHITE men WITH MONEY are the ones at the forefront.SAME issues as the rest of society,so get that shit outta politics unless it's marriage and employment related.Queer people are mostly liberated,gotdamnit,it's just straight people don't like us and alot of queer people don't like each other either]

and finally ,political correctness. Being black and underclass,i have a rather different perspective the term.I believe it is necessary...however,the issue I have is people trying to be politically correct to cover their asses.There is a such thing as a politically correct racism and it is alive and well in america and most definately with "leftists".I agree,it should not be used as a mask to cover other issues --said issues being actual racism,classism and poverty,period,which incidently all are tied together in a giant cluster-fuck conspiracy to keep the world like pyramid--all those at the bottom supporting the few at the top while being stepped on.
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#25 Christian

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 05:44 PM

The same issues apply to all areas of Identity Politics as you bring up about LGBTQ peoples though. There are African-American people with money. The experience of African-American females could be very different than the experience of African-American males, which may be very different than the experience of an African-American gay person. A woman CEO's experiences of gender would be very different than a poor woman's experiences. Then, we don't even cover other areas of disadvantage, such as mentally ill or physically handicapped, which can very much be a white male.

I don't disagree that racism exists in society, and affects certain people very differently than the majority. Systemic racism is a very big reason for why there is so much poverty among African-American and Latino populations in the United States. However, most of these issues stem from the State, which enforces draconian criminal laws, that are used to perpetuate the racial divide that was once enforced without any denial by Jim Crow laws. Then, the State passes welfare legislation, which keeps these poor people dependent on that same State, while a certain section of the political elite uses those self-same welfare legislation to stir up hatred and resentment against racial minorities in this country (even though there are plenty of poor white folk on welfare as well).
The prisons are stocked with racial minorities who committed non-violent crimes, and that's not because minorities are "less moral" than whites. The State enforces draconian laws which make it very hard for a person who has been in jail to get a job. The system is very much stacked so that it is incredibly hard to ever get out of poverty.
This systemic racism can be traced right back to the Civil War, when African-Americans were screwed over by the government after the war, as instead of being given ownership of the land that they and their families had worked for years, which by all rights the land belonged to them, the African-American population in the south, with nothing to their name, were forced to leave for the north in order to find jobs, as that was all the industry was located. That was the birth of the ghetto system.
So, more African-American people were starting out in abject poverty.

The upper class has feared one thing in the United States for decades, and that is, yes, very much indeed, poor minorities and poor white people forming an alliance against the wealthy elite. The elites mission has been done to do everything to keep the two sides divided, and not seeing their common interests. Hence, you have poor white people voting overwhelmingly for Republicans (seemingly against their own interests), while poor minorities overwhelmingly vote for Democrats (which have proven to offer nothing more than band-aids and false promises for poor people).
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#26 lady_constantine

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 07:02 PM

View PostChristian, on 01 July 2016 - 05:44 PM, said:

The same issues apply to all areas of Identity Politics as you bring up about LGBTQ peoples though. There are African-American people with money. The experience of African-American females could be very different than the experience of African-American males, which may be very different than the experience of an African-American gay person. A woman CEO's experiences of gender would be very different than a poor woman's experiences. Then, we don't even cover other areas of disadvantage, such as mentally ill or physically handicapped, which can very much be a white male.

I don't disagree that racism exists in society, and affects certain people very differently than the majority. Systemic racism is a very big reason for why there is so much poverty among African-American and Latino populations in the United States. However, most of these issues stem from the State, which enforces draconian criminal laws, that are used to perpetuate the racial divide that was once enforced without any denial by Jim Crow laws. Then, the State passes welfare legislation, which keeps these poor people dependent on that same State, while a certain section of the political elite uses those self-same welfare legislation to stir up hatred and resentment against racial minorities in this country (even though there are plenty of poor white folk on welfare as well).
The prisons are stocked with racial minorities who committed non-violent crimes, and that's not because minorities are "less moral" than whites. The State enforces draconian laws which make it very hard for a person who has been in jail to get a job. The system is very much stacked so that it is incredibly hard to ever get out of poverty.
This systemic racism can be traced right back to the Civil War, when African-Americans were screwed over by the government after the war, as instead of being given ownership of the land that they and their families had worked for years, which by all rights the land belonged to them, the African-American population in the south, with nothing to their name, were forced to leave for the north in order to find jobs, as that was all the industry was located. That was the birth of the ghetto system.
So, more African-American people were starting out in abject poverty.

The upper class has feared one thing in the United States for decades, and that is, yes, very much indeed, poor minorities and poor white people forming an alliance against the wealthy elite. The elites mission has been done to do everything to keep the two sides divided, and not seeing their common interests. Hence, you have poor white people voting overwhelmingly for Republicans (seemingly against their own interests), while poor minorities overwhelmingly vote for Democrats (which have proven to offer nothing more than band-aids and false promises for poor people).

This much is all true.And you will be surprised how many of these neo-liberals and false leftist have no knowledge of and disregard such information.And trying to get out of poverty-ugh! it is like a catch 22! I need a bank to loan me some money to go to college [pay a debt] and since I don't know anyone above a certain income level [urban area,I'm black so most people I know live in said area are black and are at only a certain income level] can't get said loan--that would help me get through college and get a higher paying job to pay for this tuition and any debt incurred--feel like my life is screwed [made worse by the fact I'm just startingto recover from a bad injury that lasted years due to crap medical care no coverage and all kindsa foolishness]
I'm a young woman so I'm new to this adult thing and I am realizing how much the system is stacked against the have nots vs the haves. When we walk the cities and see who's living in what conditions ,this is a system from generations,tracing back to the early years of the nation.

As for politics,I think there needs to be a point where the left vs the right thing has to stop [I think the right needs to not exist anyway,but that is opinion].  I had always thought it was a paradox for the underclass whites to vote republican,that just seems plain foolish to me. That's what I mean with the overseer-sndrome thing :whites have been taught to value their whiteness above all [which only real value is being able to thrive in certain climates like every other race--matters little when you can live where you want now],even their well being.

And yes I agree that these wannabe democrats keep comin' with bandaids and first aid kits,but ain't nobody ready to perform the surgery needed to fix this mess.

But in the states,that's the way the system is,the party syste, which I think is flawed,made worse in this day and age with the media and all that. When we live in a world where there are people actively voting for someone like Donald trump to be our president--ugh! I've been debating for years if I should defect to the UK,but the break from the European union and other prvious issues...how is that affecting you guys anyway? Anyone from across the pond can give me the word on the climate over there nowadays.?
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#27 Christian

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 07:16 PM

The value of the pound is way down. I know that.
I wouldn't ever leave the United States at this point. It's my home. There are a lot of things I love about America....some of them being taken away by a government out of control, mind.
I'm neither a patriot nor an anti-American type. Some Americans are assholes, just like there are plenty of assholes anywhere else in the world.
I don't know. I hear scary things that give me the impression the draft may be returning. I'm not sure if I'd rather flee or go to jail in protest. Jail is a scary prospect. I'm over 40 too, though, so I'm getting too old for the draft anyway, I'd guess. Who knows how desperate they might become in the future? I do have a girlfriend who lives in Canada, and I have lived in Canada, so it's not as if I don't have any way out. Although, she was planning to move here eventually.

Anyway, yes, you're so right. That's a problem with the politically correct crowd of so-called Leftists that I was talking about, in my view, what you mention in your first paragraph. People don't want to face the realities or actually do any research about why things are the way they are. They feel content to attack anything that they perceive as racist or sexist, even things that really aren't an issue, and feel good about themselves for doing so. Actual racists are vile people, as it's one of the lowest forms of an excuse for a human to judge anyone based on how they were born versus the type of person they are, but if the whole intent is just to make themselves feel better for being "privileged white middle class and educated", then they're really just another part of the problem, feeding in to the divide mentality that keeps the elite in positions of power.

Taking this conversation back to HB, since that's where we're posting, I found the current incarnation of Constantine: The Hellblazer so devoid of any political content. I was surprised to see people claiming it's part of some so-called Left-Wing political agenda, just the fact that JC was portrayed as openly bisexual. I can only remember one issue of the series dealing with any actual political content. Compare that with Jamie Delano's run on Hellblazer, which was so overtly political. I could understand people on the Right maybe feeling negative about the Delano Hellblazer. Yet, it was this depoliticized Constantine: The Hellblazer, with its portrayal of John, that led to so much backlash about a "political agenda". I find that absurd.
Instead of considering a Left-Wing that tackles real issues with radical proposals, the concept of diversity has become considered a "Left-Wing political agenda" in today's climate.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#28 lady_constantine

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 09:57 PM

View PostChristian, on 01 July 2016 - 07:16 PM, said:


Taking this conversation back to HB, since that's where we're posting, I found the current incarnation of Constantine: The Hellblazer so devoid of any political content. I was surprised to see people claiming it's part of some so-called Left-Wing political agenda, just the fact that JC was portrayed as openly bisexual. I can only remember one issue of the series dealing with any actual political content. Compare that with Jamie Delano's run on Hellblazer, which was so overtly political. I could understand people on the Right maybe feeling negative about the Delano Hellblazer. Yet, it was this depoliticized Constantine: The Hellblazer, with its portrayal of John, that led to so much backlash about a "political agenda". I find that absurd.
Instead of considering a Left-Wing that tackles real issues with radical proposals, the concept of diversity has become considered a "Left-Wing political agenda" in today's climate[

very much true.that is another thing that has been missing from hellblazer and constantine as a whole--the fact that john is a "working class warlock" and for the people.not touched on just the fact that he is openly queer,which in today's world makes perfect since for him to be so.i also fail to see an alleged politicak agendas--that also discounts all the right wing and central lgbt folks.if "caitlin" Jenner is anything to go by ,queer does not mean leftist.and in all honesty if it had an agenda,it might have even been a better read.

one thing about old hellblazer [mostly delano run though and a few others,kinda fizzled out by milligan to my understanding of the bit i read and as sick as it was,azarello's run had shades of it in the background or at least aknowledged the existanc eof racism and such].

nowadays,it wouldn't be weird to see a modern john hanging around on forums having a conversation like the one we're having now. I think maybe the character didn't age well ,like superman didn't age well--i think it's clever how marvel pulled the 'man out of time ' thing with captain america especially the movies,it was quite a brilliant idea.
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/

#29 Christian

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Posted 02 July 2016 - 12:57 AM

I always liked that John was an older guy though. Maybe it's because of my own age. The idea of John on the internet or with a cell phone just seems wrong to me. I guess to readers younger than me, though, it seems weird to read about a guy who doesn't have much knowledge about any of that technology.
There's an issue of Planetary by Warren Ellis (if you haven't read that series yet, I highly recommend the first three TPBs, as it's some of the best comics ever, in my opinion) where he has an homage to John Constantine, basically saying that the character is still living in the 1980s, and was never brought forward in time. You might find yourself agreeing with that assessment, and this was written in, I want to say, 2001.
"I wish it were fin du globe," said Dorian with a sigh.
"Life is such a great disappointment."
-Oscar Wilde

#30 lady_constantine

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Posted 03 July 2016 - 01:26 PM

View PostChristian, on 02 July 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

I always liked that John was an older guy though. Maybe it's because of my own age. The idea of John on the internet or with a cell phone just seems wrong to me. I guess to readers younger than me, though, it seems weird to read about a guy who doesn't have much knowledge about any of that technology.
There's an issue of Planetary by Warren Ellis (if you haven't read that series yet, I highly recommend the first three TPBs, as it's some of the best comics ever, in my opinion) where he has an homage to John Constantine, basically saying that the character is still living in the 1980s, and was never brought forward in time. You might find yourself agreeing with that assessment, and this was written in, I want to say, 2001.

In all honesty ,if they wanna bring it up to day,maybe they should leave JC alone and take it to the next generation maybe? Idk. Rose constantine was his daughter in injustice--I don't seewhy a series about her would be a bad idea,with John hovering around ocasionally or something.

And I have heard of planetary-will look into that for myself as a birthday treat :)
Wanna know what ol' Conjob gets up to nowadays? Read 'The Laughing Magician's Journal http://a-laughing-magicians-journal.blogspot.com/'.Also,check out his latest adventures at 'Elseworlds Legends http://elseworlds-legends.blogspot.com/ http://so-tru-review.blogspot.com/




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