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JohnMcMahon

Has NBC ruined 'Constantine' by straightwashing its protagonist?

  

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seventhcircle    582

Whenever they post an image as "proof" he was bi, it's always the John and Stanley kissing pic. I just want to yell "Turn the page, John is beating the fuck out of Stanley with a whip and enjoying it because he hates Stanley. He's conning him as a revenge plot! Turn the bloody page!"

 

I don't remember which one of you wrote it, but I agree that the issue to them is that bi-characters don't get fair representation on TV and that's really what they are upset about because John is cool, people love to identify with him. But in fairness, bisexuality is not fairly nor is it accurately represented in Hellblazer, either. By his actions in the one story in which we see him engaging in a bisexual relationship, deviant and negative are accurate terms, while positive, unique, loving all are terms you couldn't possibly use. They are mistaken, like many southern christians who go to church and hear what a preacher says the bible says but never read the bible themselves. They go by what this one person said and get all angry just as the preacher does. Approves what the preacher approves and shows hate for what the preacher hates. This is too similar to the John is bi craze. Few of them have read it, and if they post the John/Manor pics, they definitely did not read it.

 

is this straight washing or bi erasure?

 

I've pointed out, this happens all the time on the internet.

Put in the phrase, "Barack Obama says that all Christians will be sterilized." to Google. I bet you anything you'll get 10,000 hits and you'll see all sorts of people up in arms over this.

Did Obama say this? No.

Is this Obama's agenda? No.

The internet is a place where rumours get started and people get all bent out of shape, because they believe what they read on some web-site they frequent and don't do any fact-checking as to whether it's some thing to actually be concerned about or not.

Think of some thing even crazier if you don't believe me. How about "Satan and space aliens have created a pact to enforce a Communist world government, and all Republicans will be killed." Type it in Google, see what results you get. I bet you'll see some.

So, it's easy to imagine that, as I said, some one posted, "NBC has made it so that popular bi-sexual comic book icon John Constantine cannot be bi on TV show." And, then, every one gets angry, because it sounds like it's anti-gay. They didn't bother to do any fact-checking.

 

"Ashes and Dust" isn't as easy to define as you're making it though. It's homophobic, I do agree. But, it's not that John hates Manor. It's that John and Manor have a sexual appeal to each other, while at the same time, John hates Manor. It's Azzarello's views on the Batman/Joker dynamic also. Let's not forget that ludicrous bit of story-telling. That Batman and Joker secretly crave each other, while at the same time, they have a deep hatred for each other. The whips and stuff, they're in a S&M club. Manor is in to sado-masochism.

This whole idea that "John is just pulling a con on Manor"...it doesn't work. John is going really far to pull this con. It makes no sense. John has never been so elaborate in the lengths he's gone to to trick someone before. This isn't just a con. John does trick Manon in the end, but he's not just going through the motions sexually with Manor. There's a layer of sexual attraction underneath.

It does paint bi-sexuality as something disturbing and illicit though, I agree about that. It's not a positive portrayal.

But, this whole, "John was just fucking with Manor. It wasn't really sexual on his part." is at the level of, "I'm not bi-sexual. I just went through a phase where I was having sex with men, you know, just because."

Damn. Now I know why I joint this forum. I don't want to come over like some sort of kissass, but you are right I suppose and I be damned if I do not reconsider some of what you said. None the less: What do you suppose the show-writers should do to appeace the raging mob. As far as I can think right now, they can't come up with anything that would bring some peace to the hearts of those whoms hearts are filled with fury.

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slinker    893

All I'm saying is that how can a one off writer have so much sway over a character? More than Ennis, Delano or Carey in the minds of these people. to them, it's the only hellblazer issue that matters.

 

As for the long con vs Stanley, it's NOT feasable for someone to go to that length for revenge. that's the reason i hate the story. i don't think it's nearly as sophisticated as you do. And i do think people can be bi-sexual or experimental as a phase. it's a maturation process for some people. yes, people are born that way, but some people are just experimental. it does happen. I know a ton of people are are my age and atill bi-sexual. I know a ton of people who were bi-sexual as teens and 20s who simply aren't now, one being a close friend of mine. He never engaged in anything hardcore, it was mainly petting and such, the occasional handie whatever. But he said he didn't feel attracted to guys back then, he did it because he was horny and the other person was willing to join on. See, I don't even consider that bisexual at all, personally, neither does he, because since he turned 16 or 17 it was just girls from then on. So was it a phase? or is he a self loathing bisexual in denial who doesn't happen to be attracted to men at all? Of course it was a phase because you can't define any one person by such a broadly interpreted word. Is he a former bisexual? a reformed bisexual? A tourist? Was it temporary bisexuality? pseudobisexuality? Munchausen's bisexuality by proxy? Cockholme syndrome? Some people think they might like something, they try it a few times and it isn't for them and they never do it again. But are they then defined forever by something they did 3 or 4 times when they were young, not even adults yet? How would you define that? Is he still bisexual if he never does it again.

 

"I saved a busload of burning babies, but do they call me "hero of babies" or "baby saver"? I built an orphange for all those kids stuck at the US border, but do they call me "selfless builder"? I figured out a way to make solar panels more efficient, do they call me the inventor? But fuck one monkey and they call you monkeyfucker for the rest of your life!" (obviously stolen)

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seventhcircle    582

well thats some very dangerous grounds you are moving on. First of, you could argue, that someone whom has been bi-curious if you will, is bi-sexual by default. second you could argue from the point that sexuality is a multi-dimensional space and everyone is moving in that space somewhere but to establish oneself as vanilla heterosexual (and maybe homosexual in newer days) is somthing forced on you by the established society. The main 'problem' with bi-sexuality is that it is not clearly defined and that some define everyone as bisexual to some degree by default. I agree that there should be no checkbox for anyone to fill out if he/she/something else is a certain category, the simple problem with it would be, that you define yourself cause of peer pressure, you may be not. On the other hand, networks are not as progressive as that, they need a stereotype, they need a checkbox for like everything. The debate about gender identity is imho just bad timing on a show that will have it's difficulty surviving even without it. It's unfair. I would wish some people would understand the right point in time on when to pick a fight...

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Demon Chas08    295

Whenever they post an image as "proof" he was bi, it's always the John and Stanley kissing pic. I just want to yell "Turn the page, John is beating the fuck out of Stanley with a whip and enjoying it because he hates Stanley. He's conning him as a revenge plot! Turn the bloody page!"

 

In fact, the only images they ever use the the laundromat image from John Smith and Stanley Manor and John kissing. That's it. there isn't anything else.

 

Think about all the fans who had no idea John Smith ever wrote one issue of hellblazer and dropped Azz's run prior to Ashes and Dust. Like it was said earlier, you could read all but less than a handful of issues and never know he was "bi." But #51 was included in Bloodlines, so I'd wager many of the John is bi fans think Ennis wrote it because he wrote all the other issues in that trade. That's where some of this comes from, confusion about who wrote the laundromat issue. Would they change their minds if they really read the Azz story AND realized the writer who wrote #51 never wrote anything else on Hellblazer? And then it depends on how you define "canon." Is canon mainly stuff from the long-term writers? or is it all encompassing? The editors didn't see fit to remove it, so that's a solid argument for it being canon.

 

I don't remember which one of you wrote it, but I agree that the issue to them is that bi-characters don't get fair representation on TV and that's really what they are upset about because John is cool, people love to identify with him. But in fairness, bisexuality is not fairly nor is it accurately represented in Hellblazer, either. By his actions in the one story in which we see him engaging in a bisexual relationship, deviant and negative are accurate terms, while positive, unique, loving all are terms you couldn't possibly use. They are mistaken, like many southern christians who go to church and hear what a preacher says the bible says but never read the bible themselves. They go by what this one person said and get all angry just as the preacher does. Approves what the preacher approves and shows hate for what the preacher hates. This is too similar to the John is bi craze. Few of them have read it, and if they post the John/Manor pics, they definitely did not read it.

 

is this straight washing or bi erasure?

 

The reissued version of Bloodlines, right? I still have the first version sans #51

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Christian    744

Seventh-I think people have to learn to deal with it. Either watch the show, or do not. If you want to boycott the show because John isn't bi, it's a free country. I'm not saying you specifically, but anyone who feels that way.

 

Slinker-Sure, someone can experiment, but it's entirely possible to be bi-sexual and have not had any relations with anyone but women for the majority of your life. You can still be bi. It doesn't mean they outgrew it. You don't have to sleep with guys half the week and girls the other to be properly bi-sexual.

Some people seem to think bi-sexuality is a bad word.

If you truly experiment and it doesn't turn you on or whatever, I'm not saying anything about that.

Just this idea that John used to date Manor, it feel through, Manor's out for revenge, John gets back with him, fucks with his head...but it's not bi-sexual, it's just a game....it seems like people are trying to explain away the fact that John did have some sexual attraction for Manor.

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James    38

In summary they should make Zed a bisexual in the teleovision series.

 

That would propably be not the dumbest move.

 

Nooooo, it would be a terrible move. The reason why John being bisexual is interesting and exciting is that he's the protagonist, he's male and he's a non-traditional queer figure in the media (being masculine and rough-around-the-edges).

 

If they make the totally hot female sidekick bisexual (which, to be fair, she was in the comics) then it comes across as a nasty combination of tokenism and pandering to a (perceived) horny male audience, and fits a well-worn character trope.

 

Better to make Chas bi or gay. A big, monster-fighting bear.

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A. Heathen    1,131

Good idea, James.

Perhaps everyone in the series should be either gay, bisexual, a dog-fucker or have a tattoo of a tree on their arse.

 

Regarding the Azzarello story, as I observed at the time, this is a story where various people give an account of what happened that night.

And the accounts all differ, and can be seen to be influenced by who is telling the story.

A classic POV thriller, where we are not told what actually happened.

 

(SPOILER) [ Spoiler : John Dies At The End. ]

 

(not a SPOILER) [ Spoiler : Not really. He just ends up Liverpool. Just like Pete Milligan's ending. ]

 

What we really need to do is (sort of SPOILER) [ Spoiler : check the undead tumblrs and see if they are up in arms about John not being dead in the TV series. ]

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JohnMcMahon    562

I kind of want to get a cross-section of the more vocal outraged types in a room somewhere with a few complimentary copies of Highwater, just so I can experience their calm and measured reaction to a fully realised bi-sexual John Constantine fucking a (willing) dog's face,

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Gwilym    330

Which makes me curious; I found Highwater (edit: Good Intentions, actually; Highwater was the KKK one) quite vague and ambiguous about what exactly happened with the dog, but I've seen a lot of people talk specifics. Crappy as the story was, I might have to re-read that bit just to see whether or not I'm super-dense about canine sex acts. Which I think is valuable information about oneself.

 

edit: OK not ambiguous at all. Maybe I just blocked it out. Still a crappy story.

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Gwilym    330

Jason, you'll get us all into terrible trouble!

 

Actually, I dreamed this morning that this thread had been discovered and invaded by Tumblrists. Are you the one to make my dreams come true?

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seventhcircle    582

Which makes me curious; I found Highwater (edit: Good Intentions, actually; Highwater was the KKK one) quite vague and ambiguous about what exactly happened with the dog, but I've seen a lot of people talk specifics. Crappy as the story was, I might have to re-read that bit just to see whether or not I'm super-dense about canine sex acts. Which I think is valuable information about oneself.

 

edit: OK not ambiguous at all. Maybe I just blocked it out. Still a crappy story.

Thats your sub-conscious protecting your mind, mate ;)

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Lou K    1,059

Should be incorporated into our new forum logo

You want the forum in blazing flames, don't you?

 

Sure, why not?

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Lou K    1,059

 

close thread after posting on Tumblr plz

 

Unfortunately this would probably be lost on most protesters as they likely have not read the comic.

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seventhcircle    582

close thread after posting on Tumblr plz

 

Unfortunately this would probably be lost on most protesters as they likely have not read the comic.

 

Or it could make it worse, they may think this abomination of an idea was born in this forum...

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Christian    744

It's funny that this is also the most popular thread on the forum. We've all grown bored with stupid things like who will play Zed and what next DC occult character is showing up in the show....instead, we'd rather discuss about John being bi.

 

Anyway, after Jason's picture, we might as well close up shop and head home. Our job on Straight to Hell is finished.

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seventhcircle    582

Ah cmon. Who plays zed or if the stranger shows up is interesting yes, but it can be a total disaster. I had high hopes for the issue of constantine with the stranger and it was bollocks. It all depends on wether or not they get the characters and maybe more important their interaction right. Also especially for conjohn and zed, do the actors get some kind of chemistry? i would be more invested if they announced zatanna for the show, but only because she is my comic-crush (maybe not in the current nu52 version, that is way to slutty. Like I have seen porn were the actresses are dressed more decent).

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