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Marvel's One World Order

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seventhcircle    580

the major flaw about civil war is the same asa using x-men as some metaphor for an opressed minority. when your kind has the power to single-handedly level a city the rules of normal humans do not apply.

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Christian    734

Sure, sure. I'm pretty sure we already had this argument about Civil War. It's an imperfect metaphor, but it's to be read as an analogy, in a fictional universe. Otherwise, the stories would just be social realism stories about people dealing with real world issues. You have to use your suspension of disbelief.

Tony Stark was George W. Bush. Civil War was September 11th, 2001 and the Patriot Act.

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Oh, and mutants work within the context of comics because people are so scared about mutants in their midst, but yet, they treat characters like the Avengers as shining icons. Iron Man might destroy half of New York City fighting a super-villain, but Iron Man still gets cheered.

Yet, when it comes to mutants, they're the "Other" and to be feared and hated.

So, it does work. It's not just that people are afraid because a mutant could have a destructive power (unlike, say, a gay person). Otherwise, they'd be just as afraid of any superheroes with vast powers.

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Christian    734

Eh, that wouldn't fit with Steve Rogers either. They used the fascist mind-set with Steve Rogers just now with Secret Empire anyway.

Rogers was never a blind patriot who followed whatever the government said. You can go back to the Steven Engelhart run on Captain America, when Steve Rogers gave up being Captain America after the events of Watergate with Nixon.

Then, in the 1980s, Steve Rogers gave up being Cap again, when Reagan wanted him to work for the federal government. The "super-patriot" US Agent took up the mantle of Captain America.

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JasonT    438
8 hours ago, Christian said:

Yeah, the whole "a large percentage of America supported Hydra Cap" thing is what really makes me feel distaste about Marvel not hitting the reset button. ... How do you deal with that in a shared comic book universe? "Gee, sorry about all that. I mean, I still wish you were in a concentration camp, but now that you're not, well, welcome back to your home. No hard feelings....unless I decide to lynch you in the middle of the night or something, in which case, yeah....."

How are you dealing with it in the real universe? Currently the USA, the UK and Australia are being forced to confront huge internal divides that are usually out of sight, out of mind.

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Christian    734

Well, so far we haven't put anybody in concentration camps.....

It would be closer to what happened in Nazi Germany after the war.

Except, I expect that Marvel won't ever mention it again going forward. Which is sort of awkward.

Nor do I really want them to, honestly. I'd rather the  Marvel Universe be a place I can escape to, not a place where I have to be reminded of things like Donald Trump or Charlottesville again. Where the hell am I supposed to transmogrify myself to in 2012 when the world ends?

I guess there is some precedent with the Japanese-American citizens put in to interment camps in the US, where after WWII, everyone just sort of pretended that it never happened.

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seventhcircle    580

you have thos darkside-prisons like guantanamo.

which are not really comparable to concentration camps (hello moral relativism) but they work really similar to the civil war prisons.

 

but yeah. i'm totally with you, i expect mainstream entertainment from marvel, not political statements at least in the main-stream universe. imo it works far better to create your own characters and set them up perfectly if you want societal/political statements. thats e.g. what v or transmet did and those are masterpieces. i also think that watchmen worked far better with the heros being pastiches of heros, instead of the actual heros (although if i remember that was not by alan's choosing).

honestly now that i have read a lot more comics than i had last time we talked about civil war, the book looks even worse to me :D

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Christian    734

The concentration camps I was referring to with Jason were the ones from Secret Empire, where Hydra put all the Inhumans in America.

No, I agree with you that Civil War is an awful comic book. I didn't really like it, and don't recommend that other people should read it. I really feel like it was the beginning of Marvel's downhill slide, doing stories like Civil War.

And, it pretty much culminated in Secret Empire. While not quite as awful a read as Civil War, Secret Empire was a pretty awful comic book also, and I don't recommend it as a Marvel comic that someone should read either.

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dogpoet    442

It's quite hard not to look at all of the Civil War bullshit and think: "Walt Simonson did this better in two issues of the Fantastic Four a quarter of a century ago, and he had Reed Richards act like Reed Richards (rather than Quisling) in that as well!" if I'm honest.

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seventhcircle    580
17 minutes ago, Christian said:

The concentration camps I was referring to with Jason were the ones from Secret Empire, where Hydra put all the Inhumans in America.

oh sorry, i didn't realize that.

 

22 minutes ago, Christian said:

No, I agree with you that Civil War is an awful comic book. I didn't really like it, and don't recommend that other people should read it. I really feel like it was the beginning of Marvel's downhill slide, doing stories like Civil War.

And, it pretty much culminated in Secret Empire. While not quite as awful a read as Civil War, Secret Empire was a pretty awful comic book also, and I don't recommend it as a Marvel comic that someone should read either.

imo millar works best if he can just work tropes into absurdidity. from recent years, i really liked his old man logan. but in the end his style does leave me always missing some substance

i never really gotten into mainstream marvel after 'the initiative', 'civil war' marked my first try to get into comics and that turned me off. i did the mistake and gave them another shot with benids' 'the siege', which was equally awful. i am thinking about looking into punisher max at some point, but thats because it says ennis on it and not marvel.

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Christian    734

I'm not really sure what you're looking for in comic books, but a lot of the newer Marvel stuff isn't worth reading. Most of the newer Marvel titles that are really good are ones that flew more under-the-radar, rather than their more popular books (like Avengers or X-Men*), and definitely not their "big event" cross-overs.

*Grant Morrison on X-Men from way back in 2001 or Jonathan Hickman on Avengers being the most notable exceptions.

Also, avoiding most of Millar and Bendis' work at Marvel is usually for the best, although they did each write a few books worth reading (Bendis on Ultimate Spider Man, Alias, and half of his run on Daredevil, or Millar's Ultimates).

I enjoy older Marvel Comics, myself. I am a huge fan of Marvel from the 1960s through the 1980s. I'm not sure if that's to your tastes or not as a comic book reader though.

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On 9/23/2017 at 2:27 PM, Christian said:

I'm not really sure what you're looking for in comic books, but a lot of the newer Marvel stuff isn't worth reading. Most of the newer Marvel titles that are really good are ones that flew more under-the-radar, rather than their more popular books (like Avengers or X-Men*), and definitely not their "big event" cross-overs.

*Grant Morrison on X-Men from way back in 2001 or Jonathan Hickman on Avengers being the most notable exceptions.

Also, avoiding most of Millar and Bendis' work at Marvel is usually for the best, although they did each write a few books worth reading (Bendis on Ultimate Spider Man, Alias, and half of his run on Daredevil, or Millar's Ultimates).

I enjoy older Marvel Comics, myself. I am a huge fan of Marvel from the 1960s through the 1980s. I'm not sure if that's to your tastes or not as a comic book reader though.

Yeah, the more isolated stuff is the best for recent Marvel (and I say "recent" meaning the last 10 years or so, I guess).  Ellis' Moon Knight, Jason Aaron's Ghost Rider, Ennis' Punisher MAX (and Aaron's too, yeah), all quite good.  I really dug the short-lived Mockingbird series by Chelsea Cain, too.

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dogpoet    442

Just look at GOG: that was, under Abnett, the best comic Marvel was publishing for three years, and almost completely ignored apart from when a tie in with the latest bullshit crossover had to be contrived.

Then they relaunch a rather shittier version by Bendis to cross promote a film, and promote it a teensy bit more aggressively: spin offs crossover with everything that might be selling, you name it. There'll be a spin off mini series with Drax and Groot as a wrestling tag team and The Rock co-credited as the writer next...

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Christian    734

You did know there was a Drax series written by professional wrestler C.M. Punk, right? Because....that sounds really close to what you just described.

Yeah, it's a shame that Abnett's run on GotG was when that book was a C-list title, which did allow Abnett to be so creative on the book and, in the process, he reinvents it so that they would want to make a movie out it, and then when the actual movie premiered and made the characters so popular, Abnett was long gone, and Bendis was put on the book to continue to tell his horrible stories instead.

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dogpoet    442
3 hours ago, Christian said:

You did know there was a Drax series written by professional wrestler C.M. Punk, right? Because....that sounds really close to what you just described.

I didn't, actually, but I'm not surprised.:puke:

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Christian    734

Marvel Legacy #1 (by Jason Aaron)-This was a huge disappointment. Certainly not worth the $6 cost. The stuff with the Avengers of 1 million B.C. was pretty fun, but I don't see where their story would be continued in further Marvel Comics. It seems more like those ideas from this book are going to be lost outside of this book. Unless this was Marvel planning for their next big event, line-wine cross-over! Yippee! We've got to get that started right now, because Secret Empire just ending and Marvel Legacy just starting won't be enough, they must push the next mega-blockbuster now!

Otherwise, the book is more promos for upcoming story-arcs in some of Marvel's major books....i.e. a story pushed by editorial committee.

Marvel advertised that there were two big returns being unveiled in this book, "one that people have been clamoring for, and one that people will dread to see". I'm not sure exactly which returns Marvel was speaking about. I'm not even going to hide this, because everyone has expected it since the death happened, and it's a huge disappointment, and I know no one cares....but, the original Wolverine is back. Is that the return "everyone was dreading"? Because, I was sort of hoping he would stay dead.

Marvel has X-23 (Wolverine's female clone) as Wolverine, Old Man Logan, and Ultimate Wolverine (Logan's alternate universe son) all running around in the Marvel books already. Do we really need another Wolverine???

Oh, actually Marvel's next cross-over was already announced, by the way....although, it's a X-line cross-over, not an entire Marvel Universe event, but it's the return of the adult Jean Grey. That's going to bring back all the fans that Marvel has lost due to their poor decisions! "Jean Grey is coming back for the sixteenth time?! And, there's already a teenage version of Jean Grey too! My god, I must buy Marvel Comics again!"....said no one.

The surprise ending of the story is probably going to piss off a lot of fans, rather than "make them clamor for more". I won't reveal that surprise return, but if that's what Marvel was referring to, you will probably feel disappointment more than anything else that this is the best Marvel can do for a "big reveal".

I don't see Marvel Legacy fixing Marvel's ingrained problems, in the least. I don't see fans rushing back for any of this, because the inherent flaws in Marvel's publishing mentality are still readily apparent. Plus, Marvel has lost almost all of their big-name creators now, much like what happened to DC in the middle of the "New 52".

So, it probably won't be long before Marvel releases a new statement blaming "blacks and gays for Marvel's low sales!"....

Maybe a white supremacist Thor taking over the Marvel Universe and killing....oh, I don't know....Hawkeye let's say....will be the ticket to Marvel's resurgence! I can't wait for Secret Empire War next year!

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Christian    734

So, I'm going out on a limb and saying that Legacy is a poorly planned idea.

It's really just the exact same Marvel comics as a month ago, only with a new story-arc starting in the book (not always a reader friendly starting point either, simply a new story-arc), plus a new banner at the top of the covers to let you know the comic is part of "Legacy".

All the same creative teams are still in place. Most of the books released don't even have "legacy" numbering. Instead of bringing back the titles of Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, or Inhumans (say) so that they can use "legacy" numbering on those titles, they just continue on with the same numbering as last month.

Yeah, I can't see this being the spark that brings readers back to Marvel.

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Christian    734

umm....Lots of guns?

They're obviously after the super-soldier formula from Marvel. Then, Marvel gets free publicity by having soldiers dress up as Marvel Comic characters. Obviously, someone has been reading Morrison's X-Men, and thought that Weapon X should exist in real-life.

Who else is going to be at the comic con booth? McMaster, Mattis, Kelly, and all of the neocons! Get John Bolton's autograph! No, not the really great artist, that batshit insane war criminal from the W. Bush administration!

What Marvel gets out of this is a piece of that oh so lucrative federal defense spending, lavished by tax-payers' money, in order to create a propaganda book for them. "Look, kids! War is cool! Captain America does it!". Instead of a shield, he'll have a semi-automatic assault rifle.

In other news, Marvel has deleted all references to Denny O'Neil's run on Iron Man. Warmonger Stane buying out Stark's company so it can start manufacturing weapons for the government again? No, that never happened!

I can't believe that Marvel wouldn't recognize that they stand to lose more with this controversy than the quick payday they can get from this.

Honestly, this is just sickening. What a horrid, horrid idea. In all honesty, it seems that Grant Morrison was right in a recent interview, where he decried the state of superhero comic books, saying that they seem to be part of the military-industrial-entertainment complex now. I guess he was prescient, once again.

This just makes me sad. It was bad enough when they were bought out by the Disney Corporation. I guess I am going to have to start boycotting Marvel Comics. I can turn a blind eye to a lot of things when it comes to comic books, but this is certainly not one of them.

Comic books used to be critical of war. They've backed away from that. It's politically correct to be against racists or fascists or Republicans, but it's not politically correct to question the American war-machine, and I've noticed mainstream comic books being far less critical of the military-industrial complex than they were back during the W. Bush years. No one can ever question the sanctity of the American military anymore. If Marvel wanted to avoid such sensitive real-world issues, that would be one thing, but they haven't shied away from fascist Steve Rogers standing in for Donald Trump. So, why shy away from the Left-Wing agenda that existed in comic books from the 1970s through the early-2000s?

I think this is the interview by Morrison I am referring to.

http://comicbook.com/2015/07/16/avatarex-creator-grant-morrison-is-bored-with-dark-knight-style-/

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dogpoet    442
8 hours ago, Christian said:

umm....Lots of guns?

They're obviously after the super-soldier formula from Marvel. Then, Marvel gets free publicity by having soldiers dress up as Marvel Comic characters. Obviously, someone has been reading Morrison's X-Men, and thought that Weapon X should exist in real-life.

Who else is going to be at the comic con booth? McMaster, Mattis, Kelly, and all of the neocons! Get John Bolton's autograph! No, not the really great artist, that batshit insane war criminal from the W. Bush administration!

Has Chuck Dixon written any X Men? He spent the whole of his run on the Punisher bragging about his credentials as a gun bunny and how that proved he was the best qualified writer in comics to be writing that character, iirc.

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Christian    734

Yeah, that was his sole work for Marvel Comics, on the Punisher. Mike Baron, who would often brag about how he was a card-carrying Republican and was a supporter of stricter laws and the death penalty, was the initial writer on that Punisher series, before Dixon took it over. That was Baron's only work for Marvel also. Unlike Dixon though, Baron did write the quality Nexus series. The remainder of Dixon's work was for DC.

EDIT:Oh, I just checked, and I was mistaken. DIxon was also the main writer on the Moon Knight revival series. I didn't read that book until the short-lived J.M. DeMatteis run.

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dogpoet    442

You missed nothing.

Mind you, I am opposed to anybody who isn't Doug Moench writing Moon Knight in any case...

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Christian    734

Not a bad idea, since no one has topped the Moench 1980s run. Some of the more recent Moon Knight books haven't been bad though....Warren Ellis, Brian Wood, and Jeff Lemire writing the book. The Lemire run I would really recommend, especially if you're a fan of the Moench issues.

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