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Captain America Civil War

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Red    467

So, the trailer's out:

 

 

I haven't read the comic, but isn't this a lot less political than that? Here it seems like Cap's main motivation is just personal, it's all about Bucky. While a lot of the other stuff in the trailer looks cool, that kinda bugs me.

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The mcu hasn't been round long enough to establish the comic verse version of events.really ,if the xmen were part of the mcu,it would stick.as of now,it's bout cap fighting for the freedom of himself and his lover ,bucky barnes,aka the winter soldier and tony stark trynna clean another mess he made (ultron).besides,this is more of a casual audience grabber than the other version.

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Comic verse civil war would bot be possible without the loaded history...plus house of M...

As youncan see,II'm a secret ebnemy spy who works for marvel pretending to like dc to steal their plans.

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Red    467

it's bout cap fighting for the freedom of himself and his lover ,bucky barnes,aka the winter soldier

Lover? Did I miss something?

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seventhcircle    580

i think thats just the lady, plugging her fan fic :wink2:

 

i disagree: civil war was pretty self contained. the premis was a bit questionable. i think that the fear of being assigned to a gouverment is baseless, since the comic did in no way introduce something that forces the superheros to do something against their will. even if you are paid by the gouverment, you always have the ability to refuse an order.

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Lou K    1,054

 

 

I haven't read the comic, but isn't this a lot less political than that? Here it seems like Cap's main motivation is just personal, it's all about Bucky. While a lot of the other stuff in the trailer looks cool, that kinda bugs me.

 

It was a little more political, but not by much, just an excuse to have a big punch em up really. It's more in line with the beginning of the trailer, where the gov is tired of heroes running around with impunity, maybe hurting civilians in the process of their agendas. And so they try and force registration of identity, which Tony Stark endorses and Cap rejects. A line in the sand, start punching. I like that this is more about Buck as it extends the theme from Cap 2 so it makes sense. Also to do CW right they would have to have pretty much everyone in the MCU available, including FF and Spidey, and they don't. So I can see how some improvisations were made.

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Trolling .it is very heavily shipped in fandom...more than steve/peggy even.

it's bout cap fighting for the freedom of himself and his lover ,bucky barnes,aka the winter soldier

Lover? Did I miss something?

trollingit is shipped so hard it,s up there with steve/tony .

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If one is interested in said fic ,google,the winter soldier:dissavowed...

But that is not the point. The point is that in the comics it was a bit redundant.I personally believe that steve should have just went with tony and sign up ypur identity.makes sense.it is safer that way.

 

That being said,in my novels universe ,people are allowed to work as freelance bounty hunters and free agents...powers and all are in your medical records.which...why is nobody ever thinking of that? HoW does clark kent hide heat vision from his doctor ?okay off topic.but I like the personal feeling of the mcu much better.this is why the iron man ,thor and captain america movies are better than the avengers

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St. Apathy    140

it's bout cap fighting for the freedom of himself and his lover ,bucky barnes,aka the winter soldier

Lover? Did I miss something?

Steve and Bucky are popular as a romantic pairing in places that go for that sort of thing. Huuuuge over on tumblr.

 

Utter nonsense, of course. Sam/Steve is where its at.

 

So, the trailer's out:

 

 

I haven't read the comic, but isn't this a lot less political than that? Here it seems like Cap's main motivation is just personal, it's all about Bucky. While a lot of the other stuff in the trailer looks cool, that kinda bugs me.

 

I thought the storyline was shit, so I'm blind to any nuance the event might have held, but Cap's motivation was that that the pro-registration side were off the deep end, nigh cartoonishly so.

 

Iron Man is Marvel's biggest draw so they can't have him being the guy who builds a gulag and orchestrates a war with Atlantis, so they make it about Bucky

 

TBH if they are making a Civil War movie (they shouldn't though), 'I'll stand with my friend gainst all these trifling bitches' is better than 'super-powered people ought do what they like'

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it's bout cap fighting for the freedom of himself and his lover ,bucky barnes,aka the winter soldier

Lover? Did I miss something?

Steve and Bucky are popular as a romantic pairing in places that go for that sort of thing. Huuuuge over on tumblr.

 

Utter nonsense, of course. Sam/Steve is where its at.

 

So, the trailer's out:

 

 

I haven't read the comic, but isn't this a lot less political than that? Here it seems like Cap's main motivation is just personal, it's all about Bucky. While a lot of the other stuff in the trailer looks cool, that kinda bugs me.

 

I thought the storyline was shit, so I'm blind to any nuance the event might have held, but Cap's motivation was that that the pro-registration side were off the deep end, nigh cartoonishly so.

 

Iron Man is Marvel's biggest draw so they can't have him being the guy who builds a gulag and orchestrates a war with Atlantis, so they make it about Bucky

 

TBH if they are making a Civil War movie (they shouldn't though), 'I'll stand with my friend gainst all these trifling bitches' is better than 'super-powered people ought do what they like'

Agreed.it is more relatable and in the current mcu it fits better.this is why it is a captain america movie instead of a standalone or an avengers movie.So..sam/steve/bucky or sam/steve/bucky/nat?

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Christian    734

The political allegory is so heavy-handed. Not that it's wrong to have tackled the policies of W. Bush and the "war on terror" so strongly at the time. The actual comic wasn't very good though, so it might be best that it doesn't matter much.

 

Like others have said, it'd have to be too involved if it got in to every element that the comic used....lots of new heroes for the movie-verse, and etc.

As others have said, Civil War also does really ruin any chance of Iron Man ever being sympathetic again, which would hurt the continuing movie franchise. In the comics, they just waved their hands and moved on, without Iron Man even needing to find redemption for his actions. That's even worse, if you're just going to ignore the actions of your character.

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seventhcircle    580

i mean they also put the green goblin in charge, who used supervillains even further and tried to destroy asgard and tony got to be the hero, so that helped immensely. also iron man just had the better points. i think the discussion is somewhere on this forum, how the xmen are sometimes used as an allegory for threatened minorities and how that doesn't work, because some of them are basically freakin gods. the same applies for the rest of the marvelverse (or most of it).

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The political allegory is so heavy-handed. Not that it's wrong to have tackled the policies of W. Bush and the "war on terror" so strongly at the time. The actual comic wasn't very good though, so it might be best that it doesn't matter much.

 

Like others have said, it'd have to be too involved if it got in to every element that the comic used....lots of new heroes for the movie-verse, and etc.

As others have said, Civil War also does really ruin any chance of Iron Man ever being sympathetic again, which would hurt the continuing movie franchise. In the comics, they just waved their hands and moved on, without Iron Man even needing to find redemption for his actions. That's even worse, if you're just going to ignore the actions of your character.

one of the reasons i can't deal with the comic verse iron man.total d-bag on many ocassions.but he was pretty much right with his side on the civil war. Thisntime though in movie verse,its like bucky,s a litwral fall guy to save everyonecsses and an answer to everything wrong with their verse.probably gonna cover up the peisoner of war thing and the fact that he was partially a homegrown terrorist...thats the worst kind,threats in your own backyard.Also...the comic was so overrated

 

.

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Christian    734

Yeah, Seventh, they did have Osbourne take control, and they acted like Osbourne using Stark's methods against him was supposed to make him sympathetic again. He's the one who put the freakin' policies in place! Typical Right-Winger...I trust the government with this power so long as MY side is in power!

That's why I like Cap's position, regardless of how over-rated the whole series is, as he doesn't care if it's his buddy in power, he doesn't believe the government should have that sort of power.

 

I don't believe for a second that the Registration side is correct. It's about civil liberties and personal privacy...only with lots more fighting than political discussions.

OK, it's a fair point that it doesn't totally work as a real-life analogy using superheroes who literally blow up entire cities with their childish battles. That's a fair point.

Vigilantes operating outside the rule of law to gain justice does reek, quite a bit, of fascism.

 

At the same time, it does work though with the "war on terror". Millar, I'm sure, does believe that terrorists are always a potential threat. That they can and have killed innocent people.

It's a question of how far are you willing to let the government go, in the name of safety.

If you let them set up databases and concentration camps and mass surveillance in the name of "good", where does it end? Will homosexual databases be next? How long before the government turns into a Stalinist tyranny?

Just change "superheroes" to "dangerous terrorists" and you'll get Millar's point.

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Christian    734

Not that I'm saying Civil War is deep or worth reading. I really hated Marvel around the time of Civil War and found the actual comic pretty bad. I just liked that version of Captain America. He's not just some blind patriot who'd say "America, love it or leave it!".

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Red    467

My point is that as it stands, I'm having more sympathy with Tony than Cap. The vigilante thing is a huge fucking moral problem smack in the center of superhero comics, which is usually dealt with through avoidance. If Caps only argument in this case is that he has to stick up for his childhood friend, that's just too weak, simply put. I'd go with Tony. Since I assume we're meant to be rooting for Cap in this film, that would be a problem.

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seventhcircle    580

It's a question of how far are you willing to let the government go, in the name of safety.

If you let them set up databases and concentration camps and mass surveillance in the name of "good", where does it end? Will homosexual databases be next? How long before the government turns into a Stalinist tyranny?

Just change "superheroes" to "dangerous terrorists" and you'll get Millar's point.

 

to sell the point, it should be enough to say holocaust. because, what you describe is exactly what had happened in nazi germany.

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Red    467

Of course it depends on what kind of measures they are adopting, but making a database for people with superpowers is a very different thing than making concentration camps. One could consider it on par with a database for guns. Having to register as a gun owner doesn't mean the government is going to gas you.

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St. Apathy    140

I agree with you on the registration, Red. It boils down to 'this group of people privilaged with power deserve the privilage of vigilantism'

 

My dislike of Iron Man/RDJ prevents me from rooting for the guy, however.

 

I think a better counterpoint might have been superheroes being used as special forces, or as a political tool. What if the government decided to keep the Avengers from helping out at an emergency in Wakanda in order to strongarm their government into exporting vibranium.

 

It is kind of rich that Ross, the guy who got a foreign soldier on the path to turn into an unstoppable beast who ripped Harlem to shreds, only to get appointed to a cabinet position. And Tony, builds a robot that destroys a citystate and suffers no consequence, being the voice for accoutability. Ad hominem, perhaps, but still.

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seventhcircle    580

well at least THAT you can use as an allegory for us foreign policy and self representation.

 

Of course it depends on what kind of measures they are adopting, but making a database for people with superpowers is a very different thing than making concentration camps. One could consider it on par with a database for guns. Having to register as a gun owner doesn't mean the government is going to gas you.

 

thats the point. there is virtually no reason to make a list of black folks/ jews/ gay people any other group of people, other than using it against them, which means that you can always assume malicious intent. there is however a big reason to make lists of gun owners and you could even make a very valid point about people with deadly spreading diseases and in the comic case: of cause special prisons and databases of people that can level a country with a thought.

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Christian    734

Well, that's the problem with over-thinking Civil War too much, when Millar's whole argument is based around personal privacy. It's obvious he's trying to make an analogy with the "war on terror", considering when the book was written, and how we're supposed to associate Tony Stark with George W. Bush.

Hence, why we're supposed to worry when it goes from a database of all superheroes to mass surveillance and concentration camps (think Guantanamo Bay).

 

I don't agree with the government keeping a database of anyone, based on my personal politics, but I'll grant you that making a federal database of gun owners doesn't equate to them then making a database of other groups. At the same time, doesn't that weaken the laws enough to make a case for making a database of "official enemies"? Such as the database of Communists during the "Cold War" as potential "violent revolutionaries"? Or, right now, we see Donald Trump pressing for a database of all Muslims. How can you cry out against this being bigotry when, in fact, the vast majority of terrorist acts have been carried out by Muslim fundies? No, not all Muslims are fundamentalists and not all fundamentalists are terrorists, but if a majority of terrorists are Muslim fundamentalists, then you could argue that in the name of safety, a database of all Muslims is an acceptable action. It's impossible to really know which Muslims are truly fundamentalists, and if the enemy is "Muslim fundies", then, etc. After all, not all gun owners are criminals, right? So, why keep a database of all gun owners? Because some gun owners may misuse their rights? But, that database contains the name of everyone who buys a gun for hunting or who just keeps a gun in their home in case they need it for self-protection.

Isolating those with deadly diseases is an even more slippery slope! We've heard the Right argue a number of times that the government allowed the spread of AIDS by having too many "liberal protections" for civil rights. Because, let's face it, originally AIDS was considered a gay disease, and it was decimating the gay communities when it started. That really is a case where the government would have had the power to create a database of homosexuals and then imprison gay people in concentration camps! Something that Cuba actually did do to contain the spread of AIDS.

The "too much government power" thing is really easy to prove in real life, considering that the "war on terror" became an excuse for the government to consider every, single citizen as a potential "enemy of the State" and mass surveillance of everyone.

So, I argue it's not so easy to avoid the argument that the Registration side was wrong.

 

The superheroes working for the government for their foreign policy agenda had already been done with Superman in Dark Knight Returns. Also, Frank Miller had used the idea with the government giving powers to Nuke and using their own super soldiers in foreign interventions.

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dogpoet    442

HoW does clark kent hide heat vision from his doctor ?

Cleverly. He is an alien genius, after all.

:wink2:

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Christian    734

Wait. Why would Clark Kent need to go to a doctor? Unless there's Kryptonite, he's never sick!

You might be wondering about his eyeglasses, I suppose. I'm sure he just buys some cheap ones off the racks at Wal-Mart. It's not like he actually needs them.

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wolvy    57

My understanding is that The idea of the Super Hero Registration Act was done long before Mark Millar thought it was a cool idea. It was done in an old Fantastic Four comic from the 90's and got squashed by Reed Richards giving a speech during a Senate hearing. The same happened with Superman in the 00's, and he also gave a speech to the Senate that pretty much squashed the idea of a Super Hero Registration Act.

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