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JasonWanderer

Just Got into Hellblazer...

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A. Heathen    1,162

You've landed on several issues we were annoyed by at the time.

With Carey, Gemma had become a rounded Constantine -though vulnerable to trying too hard in the past . Mina had that annoying boyfriend for her but she was still Gemma.

Milligan put her in the Comics Refrigerator. 

And his treatment of Angie was puerile.

 

I like your take on the ending of #300. I may ever write "30 years later in that same pub" on my copy.

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Milligan's treatment of the women in the cast were my biggest problem with his run.  I didn't have any issue with Epiphany, she had her interesting moments and I liked her as a counterpoint to John, but Milligan seemed unsure of her as a character.  To shore up that she actually was super super I mean really super important guys, he trotted out Kit Ryan, Angie, and Gemma and did nothing but break them down to lift Epiphany up.  John wasn't interested in Kit, who was this boring normal woman, because now he was marrying a smoking hot 22-year old alchemist.  Angie was reduced to a walking fat joke who John wouldn't fuck no matter how hard she wanted or asked, and Gemma, holy christ was that character assassinated.  

Plot-wise, and even characterization of Constantine-wise, I liked a lot of Milligan's run.  I thought "India" was an interesting exploration of another culture, even if heaped with stereotypes, and some of his one-offs like "The Cottage" and "Suicide Bridge" were excellent.  I didn't mind Finn and I even thought the goofy trenchcoat arc had some charm to it.  That final arc, and especially the final issue, though, was nigh-unreadable.  Instead of doing something to celebrate the conclusion of a 300-issue run of a character, Milligan used it to focus completely on his own creations (Epiphany, Finn, Julian, Terry).  When those characters get more screen time in a final issue of Hellblazer than Chas, something has gone very wrong.  That last issue may very well be my least-favorite issue of the series, even more so than Mina's terrorist issue.  

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Another thing that bugged me about the Gemma rape is given that John created his Demon self out of his own unwanted bits, does that mean that deep down in John's darkest subconscious that there was already some part of him that sexually desired his niece? I suppose it is possible that it was the Nergal-extracted demon blood part of Demon Constantine acting, but still - what a vomit inducing possibility, Milligan! :puke:

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3 hours ago, A. Heathen said:

You've landed on several issues we were annoyed by at the time.

With Carey, Gemma had become a rounded Constantine -though vulnerable to trying too hard in the past . Mina had that annoying boyfriend for her but she was still Gemma.

Milligan put her in the Comics Refrigerator. 

And his treatment of Angie was puerile.

 

I like your take on the ending of #300. I may ever write "30 years later in that same pub" on my copy.

 

Haha, thanks.  Honestly, I just didn't like my other options.  Having it all be a dream/story would have been a cop-out and having it be some magical transport just goes against the essence of the work to me.

2 hours ago, Ixnay by Night said:

Milligan's treatment of the women in the cast were my biggest problem with his run.  I didn't have any issue with Epiphany, she had her interesting moments and I liked her as a counterpoint to John, but Milligan seemed unsure of her as a character.  To shore up that she actually was super super I mean really super important guys, he trotted out Kit Ryan, Angie, and Gemma and did nothing but break them down to lift Epiphany up.  John wasn't interested in Kit, who was this boring normal woman, because now he was marrying a smoking hot 22-year old alchemist.  Angie was reduced to a walking fat joke who John wouldn't fuck no matter how hard she wanted or asked, and Gemma, holy christ was that character assassinated.  

Plot-wise, and even characterization of Constantine-wise, I liked a lot of Milligan's run.  I thought "India" was an interesting exploration of another culture, even if heaped with stereotypes, and some of his one-offs like "The Cottage" and "Suicide Bridge" were excellent.  I didn't mind Finn and I even thought the goofy trenchcoat arc had some charm to it.  That final arc, and especially the final issue, though, was nigh-unreadable.  Instead of doing something to celebrate the conclusion of a 300-issue run of a character, Milligan used it to focus completely on his own creations (Epiphany, Finn, Julian, Terry).  When those characters get more screen time in a final issue of Hellblazer than Chas, something has gone very wrong.  That last issue may very well be my least-favorite issue of the series, even more so than Mina's terrorist issue.  

"India" actually was pretty good, you're right.  In fact those first few stories may not have been the best, but they weren't bad either. "The Devil's Trenchcoat" made me cringe, but not because of what it was, instead because of what I realized it could have been.  The scenario is actually pretty interesting and could have been a great character piece.  But it was what it was.  "The Cottage" was good, that is true.

Come to think of it, everything started to fall apart the moment Milligan started to rely on old characters.  When he was doing his own thing, it wasn't half bad.  For some reason he stopped creating new scenarios and as things started to wind down, he just went the Diggle route.  Except at least Diggle seemed to do it out of respect.

Yeah, Epiphany could have been a solid character if their was an actual focus on her rather than her being better than the other options.  It really makes sense Angie was butchered.  She was Epiphany - the magician who could keep up with John, while also having Kit's ability to see through him and still feel love - done so much better, since Angie at least had her own character.

The last issue seems more like an end to Milligan's run rather than the series; his swan song, not Constantine's.

46 minutes ago, GottaGetAGrip said:

Another thing that bugged me about the Gemma rape is given that John created his Demon self out of his own unwanted bits, does that mean that deep down in John's darkest subconscious that there was already some part of him that sexually desired his niece? I suppose it is possible that it was the Nergal-extracted demon blood part of Demon Constantine acting, but still - what a vomit inducing possibility, Milligan!

Yes.  After John finds out, Milligan (because I doubt the other writers had this in mind) has him contemplate what the meaning of Demon Constantine wanting Gemma was.

To remedy this, I just took it as the lust for a younger girl that John had during Milligan's run and not necessarily a long standing lust for Gemma.

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dogpoet    487
1 hour ago, GottaGetAGrip said:

Another thing that bugged me about the Gemma rape is given that John created his Demon self out of his own unwanted bits, does that mean that deep down in John's darkest subconscious that there was already some part of him that sexually desired his niece? I suppose it is possible that it was the Nergal-extracted demon blood part of Demon Constantine acting, but still - what a vomit inducing possibility, Milligan! :puke:

To be fair, that sort of thing is why we have a superego standing over our id with a blunt implement in its hand and a stern look in its eyes...

(I think rather than a buried desire of Constantine's that was supposed to be his ousted shittiest bits exploiting Gemma's fantasies in pursuit of forced sex, though. At least, I hope it was.)

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Const    1

Hi guys,

I find comfort inthinking that Gemma's rape is not a fantasy but the exact opposite of what the old bugger would do, he is his doppleganger, he embodies the opposite of John's morality.

But think about this : John is a bit (a lot) masochist...so to some point the demon fullfil his dream (or is it a fantasy?) of feeling only pure, absolute hatred and contempt for himself.

(Since I love far-fetched theories, I might as well add that rape (pleasure) + low self-esteem (suffering) = Agony and Ectasy, but nevermind.)

And also hate the way Angie was pictured, "puerile" is the exact term to describe this... 

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Christian    782

I took it that Demon John is more John Constantine's unconscious, base desires solely with an overpowering ID and missing the overriding role of the superego function, rather than a "Mirror Universe" Star Trek version of our John.

Which also feeds in to the "dream of pure contempt" with the destructive instinct of Freud.

I got the feeling that Milligan's intent there was to show that John Constantine does have the tendency towards this type of pleasure-seeking, as exemplified by Demon John. It's kept in his unconscious desires.

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I will admit that bit was not the best written and while I don't personally mind a gal with a bigger gravitational, she was made somewhat pathetic, and it may seem like it was a Gotcha from Milligan to Carey ? I dunno.

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Christian    782

Yeah, the idea was that she was obsessed with John and eating because she couldn't control her emotions or herself. It was also the idea that John got the last laugh on that girl, because she was fat now, so John wouldn't possibly want her anymore.

There's nothing wrong with portraying a realistic depiction of a larger female character. Comics are far too lacking in positive portrayals of "overweight" women. It's been well known on this site my propensity for big women. I would never have an issue with a pretty woman being portrayed to have gotten fatter!

Showing Angie as getting fat, and treating it as just natural and not a big deal would have been fine. Sure, maybe Angie put on weight over the past few years. Nothing wrong with that. It was Milligan's attempt that was the problem, to shame Angie.

Even if it was an attack from Milligan to Carey, in some fashion, using Angie gaining weight, as if that's the worst thing that could ever happen to an attractive female (!), is still puerile.

It seems most likely that Milligan's intent was simply to tear down John's past love interests to show the superiority of Milligan's little "mary sue" character. Kit was the queen, but she realized she must bow down before the true goddess, and Angie is denigrated, so it's a good thing John didn't stick with "tubbo".

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49 minutes ago, Christian said:

Yeah, the idea was that she was obsessed with John and eating because she couldn't control her emotions or herself. It was also the idea that John got the last laugh on that girl, because she was fat now, so John wouldn't possibly want her anymore.

There's nothing wrong with portraying a realistic depiction of a larger female character. Comics are far too lacking in positive portrayals of "overweight" women. It's been well known on this site my propensity for big women. I would never have an issue with a pretty woman being portrayed to have gotten fatter!

Showing Angie as getting fat, and treating it as just natural and not a big deal would have been fine. Sure, maybe Angie put on weight over the past few years. Nothing wrong with that. It was Milligan's attempt that was the problem, to shame Angie.

Even if it was an attack from Milligan to Carey, in some fashion, using Angie gaining weight, as if that's the worst thing that could ever happen to an attractive female (!), is still puerile.

It seems most likely that Milligan's intent was simply to tear down John's past love interests to show the superiority of Milligan's little "mary sue" character. Kit was the queen, but she realized she must bow down before the true goddess, and Angie is denigrated, so it's a good thing John didn't stick with "tubbo".

Well that does sound rather nasty, it does.

I agree with your suggestion by the by. I know Valiant are/were publishing one starring an overweight female superheroine.

And mind you I'm not one of those leftie Fat Pride types either. I just think what Milligan did with that wasn't very good, at all.

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Christian    782

I didn't say you were a "fat pride"-type. Fat chicks are hot, to my tastes! Nothing political about it, I just like to see a woman with some nice flesh, so I have my own personal reasons for not wanting to see a world of all skinny females.

Yes, it was just poorly done and in bad taste.

The Valiant comic was Faith. My girlfriend read the first issue, and I think she liked it. I don't really know much about it though.

There's nothing wrong with presenting a broad spectrum of people in comic books, who are relatable to different types of people. Seeing every woman in comics being so skinny isn't exactly a realistic representation of current-day society.

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1 hour ago, Christian said:

I didn't say you were a "fat pride"-type. Fat chicks are hot, to my tastes! Nothing political about it, I just like to see a woman with some nice flesh, so I have my own personal reasons for not wanting to see a world of all skinny females.

Yes, it was just poorly done and in bad taste.

The Valiant comic was Faith. My girlfriend read the first issue, and I think she liked it. I don't really know much about it though.

There's nothing wrong with presenting a broad spectrum of people in comic books, who are relatable to different types of people. Seeing every woman in comics being so skinny isn't exactly a realistic representation of current-day society.

I thought it prudent to point that out, since people could think I'm one of those people forcing Marvel into economic suicide with feminising or brownwashing 9/10ths of their biggest titles in recent years all in the name of "diversity".

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Christian    782

Yeah, that's not what happened to Marvel Comics. That's what the editors at Marvel decided to blame instead of looking at their own self-destructive business decisions. The alt-Right idiots just decided to jump on that comment as a way to make a political point. Most of those people don't even know about comics, but hearing "diversity is being forced on a corporation and killing its profits" was an orgasm waiting to happen for them.

It's the same as the LGBTQ community whining and complaining about John Constantine not being "bi-enough", and they won't read the book unless John is fucking men, when, in reality, most of those people had never even read Hellblazer before.

The fact is that monthly comic books are a dying medium, and it's not going to change. Marvel and DC both rely on quick fixes so they can see that they hit #1 on the sales charts for that month, not bothering to think about what's going to happen the next month, when "Cap is a fascist!" or "new #1 issue!" or "Marvel Legacy begins!" isn't there to draw in the collector crowd.

Comic books used to be a lot more diverse actually. Not with minorities or anything like that. But, there used to be horror comics and sci-fi comics and crime comics and girls comics and romance comics. Something for diverse tastes. And, they sold so many damn books! They also weren't charging money so that only single middle-aged people can afford the damn things either!

Then, it ended up where superheroes are the only thing that a major comic book publisher can publish, which cuts down on the amount of fans who are going to be interested in the medium. Especially, when comic books cost $4 an issue, which means that kids can't read comic books anymore.

The idea of publishing comics that appeal to females or black people or gay people isn't a negative idea, in the least. In fact, many of these "diversity books that are killing Marvel's business" that they like to make excuses with are actually selling pretty decently as Trade Paper Backs in retail book chains, but Marvel and DC are solely obsessed with the monthly sales charts, which continue to decline all the time.

Diversity isn't Marvel's problem, and until they wake up and look at themselves in the mirror, they're going to see monthly sales decline all the time.

But, hey, then Disney might get word that they have a bunch of incompetents in charge of something they own, and Disney might start axing these idiots who don't have the first idea about how to run a profitable company. As long as Disney sees the profits they're making on the movies though, they don't have to take a hard look at why Marvel Comics is failing. So, braindead editors can start using all the excuses in the world about why they can't manage to publish comic books that anyone wants to read....."Hey, it's not my fault! It's the blacks and the queers! They're the ones who hurt Marvel!".

That's why most of us fans who actually love comic books as a medium are cutting down on our monthly buys and turning to a company like Image which comprehends the simple idea that creativity is the most important aspect to any literary medium, and isn't concerned about the next cross-over and relaunch to help save a comic book Universe which they've bungled and mishandled for about a decade now.

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4 minutes ago, Christian said:

Yeah, that's not what happened to Marvel Comics. That's what the editors at Marvel decided to blame instead of looking at their own self-destructive business decisions. The alt-Right idiots just decided to jump on that comment as a way to make a political point. Most of those people don't even know about comics, but hearing "diversity is being forced on a corporation and killing its profits" was an orgasm waiting to happen for them.

It's the same as the LGBTQ community whining and complaining about John Constantine not being "bi-enough", and they won't read the book unless John is fucking men, when, in reality, most of those people had never even read Hellblazer before.

The fact is that monthly comic books are a dying medium, and it's not going to change. Marvel and DC both rely on quick fixes so they can see that they hit #1 on the sales charts for that month, not bothering to think about what's going to happen the next month, when "Cap is a fascist!" or "new #1 issue!" or "Marvel Legacy begins!" isn't there to draw in the collector crowd.

Comic books used to be a lot more diverse actually. Not with minorities or anything like that. But, there used to be horror comics and sci-fi comics and crime comics and girls comics and romance comics. Something for diverse tastes. And, they sold so many damn books! They also weren't charging money so that only single middle-aged people can afford the damn things either!

Then, it ended up where superheroes are the only thing that a major comic book publisher can publish, which cuts down on the amount of fans who are going to be interested in the medium. Especially, when comic books cost $4 an issue, which means that kids can't read comic books anymore.

The idea of publishing comics that appeal to females or black people or gay people isn't a negative idea, in the least. In fact, many of these "diversity books that are killing Marvel's business" that they like to make excuses with are actually selling pretty decently as Trade Paper Backs in retail book chains, but Marvel and DC are solely obsessed with the monthly sales charts, which continue to decline all the time.

Diversity isn't Marvel's problem, and until they wake up and look at themselves in the mirror, they're going to see monthly sales decline all the time.

But, hey, then Disney might get word that they have a bunch of incompetents in charge of something they own, and Disney might start axing these idiots who don't have the first idea about how to run a profitable company. As long as Disney sees the profits they're making on the movies though, they don't have to take a hard look at why Marvel Comics is failing. So, braindead editors can start using all the excuses in the world about why they can't manage to publish comic books that anyone wants to read....."Hey, it's not my fault! It's the blacks and the queers! They're the ones who hurt Marvel!".

That's why most of us fans who actually love comic books as a medium are cutting down on our monthly buys and turning to a company like Image which comprehends the simple idea that creativity is the most important aspect to any literary medium, and isn't concerned about the next cross-over and relaunch to help save a comic book Universe which they've bungled and mishandled for about a decade now.

Thing is, I've seen some examples, especially from the series America, where tortured language and contortionist back bending is heavily applied to force non issues into issues while putting down some of the most idiotic phrases I've seen in a professionall published work.

And I'm just gonna say that I honestly think that this may very well have played a significant part in lowering sales, if for no other reason then due to replacing a character people liked with a new one they didn't care about. Everything I've seen of Riri Williams makes me want to reach in and punch her for being so annoying, and my affection for Iron Man is rather platonic at best. Someone reading the series monthly, year in year out, well I can see why they'd drop it once they'd hear Rori being an annoying pissant, whinning that her teacher isn't racist enough for her to have some heroic struggle to succeed at.

But that's just my opinion on that, and it's not even on topic.

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Christian    782

No, you have a valid point. I agree with most of what you wrote. The fact that Riri Williams was a black girl wasn't the issue though.

They could have had manly Republican Joe Six-Pack take over as being Iron Man, and the same thing still would have happened with Iron Man.

Besides which, the property of Iron Man has been ruined for years. No one has cared about the comic since back in the late-1990s when Kurt Busiek was writing the book. The character has been virtually unreadable since that time. Turning Iron Man in to Marvel's top super-villain during the horribly written Civil War, and then expecting fans to just forget and accept that Tony Stark is still a super-hero was the height of idiocy. Iron Man has been a tarnished property since that point.

Which is another problem with Marvel Comics. They're embarrassed to publish superhero comics, but that's ALL they publish! Their characters act about as unheroic as possible. Why would people want to read about these assholes who act like dicks and are supposed to be heroes?

Sales on Iron Man have been going downhill for years. No, replacing Tony Stark with Riri Williams was not a good idea, and continued to hurt sales. But, thinking that "Hey, a black girl replacing Tony Stark was the reason that Iron Man isn't making Marvel big money!" is ludicrous.

Don't forget that Marvel also expected long-time fans to buy that Dr. Doom was going to be Tony Stark's replacement. That's another bad idea, but it doesn't involved a minority, so certain people don't mention that stupid idea as much.....

Let me add that back in the 1980s, Tony Stark was replaced by black guy James Rhodes as Iron Man, and sales were still good on the book. The story was written by Left-Wing writer (far more Left-Wing than 90% of the today's supposed "Leftist" comic book writers, who really aren't Left-Wing at all!) Denny O'Neil, but no one made any big political point about the fact that the new Iron Man was a black dude (that's what the world was like before the fucking internet). It worked well as a story.

Look at what DC has done to John Constantine. Hellblazer was once one of the best comic books being published every month, now it's one of the most fucking generic things I've ever seen. White guy. Written by white men. Still sucks! But, based on the alt-Right narrative, John Constantine should be beloved, because he's a white guy with a white guy writing the book! That's what comic book fans want!

Nope. It's not diversity that's killing comic books. It's horrible ideas! Riri Williams was one of those horrible ideas, I do agree, but Marvel's decisions involving white straight males have been just as guilty of horrible ideas for years.

Comics also have to realize they're trying to gain two different demographics. Hardcore fans in their mid-30s through late-40s who have been reading comics since they were kids and go to the comic store every week and who are afraid of ever seeing change versus new, younger fans who shop at retail book stores and are looking for something different.

The problem is that the mid-30s through late-40s demographic (like me!) are going to be dying off eventually. If you don't replace those fans with new fans, then you have no customers.

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10 hours ago, Christian said:

No, you have a valid point. I agree with most of what you wrote. The fact that Riri Williams was a black girl wasn't the issue though.

They could have had manly Republican Joe Six-Pack take over as being Iron Man, and the same thing still would have happened with Iron Man.

I don't mean that race was the issue here, beyond the fact that they thought it necessary in the first place, and that they used the character's race for some really bad writing from what I've seen, but again, it's the way they handle these things that is the issue. I've no problem with a black/asian/whatever character, as long as they don't randomly replace a character I read, not because the creators have a reason for wanting to do so organically, but because the company tells them to do it in order to virtue signal.

So the reasons for making the decline that much more speedy, in my opinion can be summed up as

A) Replace most well known characters with non white ethnic/female characters that no one actually reading cares about or wants to see take on the roll by editorial mandate, and prioritise the skin colour of a character to actual quality writing

B) Force in talking points about feminism and opression and talking points about how lesbian relationship are somehow inherently superior to straight ones etc. in order to appeal to professional online campaigners who don't actually buy the books but only care about putting down another "victory" in their statistics

C) Get really confused why people aren't buying anymore.

Not having read the O'Neil run, I can probably chalk this up to it being something the creator wanted to do by himself for the sake of good writing, and that's where the difference lies really.

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Just to throw my two-cents in, I think Bendis was probably going back to the well with Riri Williams after he had such success with Miles Morales.  It really seemed like one of those instances of "worked once, bet it will work again" creative decisions.

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dogpoet    487

To be honest, I thought the notion of making over Doctor Doom as the new Iron Man was a lot more interesting than Riri Williams, particularly after they've spent the last couple of decades characterising Tony Stark as a deeply untrustworthy right leaning control freak. They probably won't have taken that into an examination of how little difference there is between the characters at this point, though.

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Christian    782

Yes, from what I heard, Riri William was Bendis' idea, and he said that Marvel did not force the decision to use a black teenage girl on him. The fact that Marvel and Bendis have parted ways at this point, with Marvel planning to bring back Tony Stark, may be indicative of this being Bendis being honest and not just "towing the company line". He may be upset with editorial forcing a change in his direction for the Iron Man book (even though a change was needed). Something is definitely going wrong with Marvel editorial considering that all of their top talent are jumping ship with each new forced relaunch of their line.

The obvious difference between Miles and Riri is that Spider Man started out as a teenager, while Tony Stark was a corporate CEO. Bringing in a new teenage character to be a new Spider Man was going "back to basics", bringing in a teenage girl to replace Tony Stark was just....a bad idea!

I dropped Iron Man after Riri Williams became Iron Man, but read Infamous Iron Man for a time. Yeah, I thought that Dr. Doom as Iron Man was more interesting, as well. However, it was Bendis writing both books....so, what do you expect? It was mostly Dr. Doom trying to prove that he's changed and wants to live up to Tony Stark's memory, because he truly respected Tony Stark. Then, Ben Grimm wanting to put down Dr. Doom, because he's Dr. Doom, and the Thing doesn't like or trust Dr. Doom.

It really should have just been a Dr. Doom solo series, instead of trying to shoehorn in Dr. Doom as the replacement Iron Man. It had almost nothing to do with Iron Man.

The Riri Williams book was also bungled by horrible writing. I gave it a chance, because I thought maybe Marvel would bring back Iron Man's old villains to test Riri, which is something that has been lacking in the Iron Man comic book since the Busiek days. Instead, they had her fighting ninjas....or something? It was just bad.

It was an opportunity to bring back, say, Melter, and have it so that Iron Man's armour kept updating at too fast a pace for Melter to keep up, so Melter couldn't be a threat to Iron Man anymore. Now that a teenage girl was Iron Man, Melter figures he can beat her. It would be a challenge for her. All those old villains that Tony Stark could wipe the floor with and haven't been seen in ages could come back and be treated as genuine threats again.

No, that's wasn't Bendis or Marvel's intent, and instead the book continued to suck.

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dogpoet    487

No argument about the Doom stuff, but I'm dubious that bringing back The Melter would have improved any comic, however crappy it was.

(and it'd have to be pretty crappy for bringing back The Melter to be any sort of improvement, I suspect...)

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Christian    782

Ha, ha! Yeah, well, I'm a long-time Iron Man fan. I'm one of those people who miss the days when Iron Man was doing stuff like Iron Man. The series has drifted so far from bearing any resemblance to the 1960s-1980s Iron Man comic (and not because of a black girl, but long before that point!), that the book has just been dreadful.

Killing off Tony Stark was something that should have happened after the original Civil War. I had no issue with seeing the Iron Man concept retired for a number of years, and then try again if someone had a decent idea for an Iron Man comic book again. Yet, Marvel will never allow any character who they feel has an semblance of worth left in them lie fallow, so if Tony Stark is dead, we need to replace him with two different version of Iron Man, and then we'll bring Tony Stark back, and everyone will buy the comic! Yeah, no, they won't.

Which is another huge problem with Marvel. They milked Wolverine for every cent he was worth. In the 1990s, any comic featuring Wolverine was guaranteed to be a best-seller, no matter how crap that comic book. By 2000, Wolverine appearing in a comic book garnered a yawn. Having Wolverine starring in about 20 comics every month seemed to dilute the character. Who would ever have thought something like that could happen? Everyone, except Marvel editorial, you say?

It was time to kill off the character. So, what does Marvel do? Why, we have Old Man Logan, his female clone X-23 using the name of Wolverine, the Ultimate version of Wolverine (Logan's son) running around the Marvel Universe.....and now, Marvel has finally brought back the original Wolverine! And, no one cares! I wonder why?

How can we miss a character or concept when that character becomes MORE prevalent after they are dead than they were before they died?

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Christian    782

The problem is that everything has become so political anymore. It's not about if a story is worth reading or not anymore.

Marvel editorial released a statement, which was, in effect, "Hey, we published all these comics featuring 'diversity', and people didn't rush to the stores and buy them all! We blame you!". It was a way to dodge the fact that Marvel needs to completely change their business model but refuses to make any changes.

When the statement should have read, "We don't have any idea what we're doing! Please don't fire our sorry asses!".

Then, the alt-Right idiot picked up on this and started this whole campaign of, "Left-Wing radicals have taken over the comic book business! Marvel is going to be filing bankruptcy soon because they forced their writers to write stories about girls and blacks and queers!"

So, the SJW reactionaries decided to take up the baton and respond, "Comic book readers are a bunch of racists and sexists! They refused to buy a comic book just because it featured a woman or a minority on the cover!".

Both sides are completely wrong.

It's all about the quality of the story and creativity, not about these idiots little political squabbles.

Was Ms. Marvel a bad book because it featured a Muslim teenage girl?

Was Squirrel Girl a bad book because it featured a female lead character?

How about Black Panther or Luke Cage?

All of those books seemed to do just fine, because they were well written and had a clear purpose and direction.

If the Denny O'Neil run on Iron Man happened today, everyone would be up in arms because James Rhodes was now Iron Man. It wouldn't matter that it was the best run in the history of Iron Man. The only thing that would matter would be that it featured an African-American man taking over the role of Iron Man. The quality of the book would be based solely on that, depending on the person's political persuasion, not on anything about the story.

I'm so sick of that whole debate.

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Christian    782

Plus, the biggest complaint I hear from actual Marvel fans is that Marvel is so petty because they won't publish Fantastic Four anymore.

You know what I think? Why? So Marvel can put Marc Guggenheim on the book and we can hear the fans complain about how much the Fantastic Four suck?

The last time anyone cared about the Fantastic Four was when Jonathan Hickman was writing the book. Before Hickman, was the Waid run. The book had been in the doldrums for the majority of its history. Let the dead carcass rest, I say. Maybe someday some talented writer will come along and realize how to recapture the magic of Fantastic Four, like Waid or Hickman. Until then, do we really need another title whose only purpose is to exist because it was first published in 1961? Another title that sees its monthly sales decline all the time, because the book isn't worth reading.

I mean, I have been one of Marvel's biggest apologists as members of this Forum can attest. Forum members would say that they were done with the "Big Two", and I'd stick up for Marvel and say, "They may have some problems, but they still publish a lot of quality titles."

When Marvel has gotten to the point where someone like me decides to rip the company to pieces on just about every level, something is seriously wrong. I was reading a majority of Marvel comics just a year ago. After the first week of Marvel Legacy I decided to stop reading all Marvel books. My reasoning was certainly not because I thought, "Eeew gross! Marvel is publishing comic books starring girls!".

Adrian-You may want to move this entire discussion.

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dogpoet    487

The really weird thing is that they're replacing male characters with female ones, rather than just starting new titles around their existing (and often underused) female characters. Miss Marvel and Squirrel Girl didn't replace Master Marvel and Squirrel Boy, after all. If they are proving popular, maybe it's because they started as something different rather than yet another minor twist on an early '60s character whose comic has been running on vapours for a quarter of a century?

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