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Mercury727

The Punisher

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The M.K. stuff left me cold.

OK, so the MAX stuff bored me after the first story-arc.

So, I really don't like the character all that much.

"Punisher:The End" is probably one of my most read comics. It's one of Ennis' best stories (outside of Vertigo*, especially), ever.

 

*Yeah, I realize Ennis has his fair share of junk from Vertigo also, but his best work is under the Vertigo imprint, IMO.

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Basically I came across this little comic book shop the other day that is the kind of shop you could easily walk past without ever noticing and thankfully for me was fairly local. So I went in, and after grabbing the first Transmetropolitan trade for a fiver my eye caught a whole pile of Punisher trades. In particular, one entitled "Smother Russia" by Garth Ennis and an artist whose name I cant now recall...

 

Anyway, I thought the artwork was very easy on the eyes so to speak and with Ennis writing, it must be a somewhat entertaining read. I've been looking for reviews online for this trade but cant seem to find any. So is it good or bad? Where would be a good starting point for someone who hasnt read the Punisher at all?

 

At min i'm at coll so haven't checked every post but In The Begining is as good a place to start as any it's the start of the max run which is brilliant iv'e got every issue so far and not one has let me down.

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I liked Suicide Run..... Especially the first couple issues.....

 

Really? I thought it was too much of a bite off the death of Superman or the Spiderman clone thing. Big Pun "dies" and a dozen different Punishers pop up in his place. The idea was cool though, Frank takes out a whole building full of mafiosos and himself and then has to claw his way out.

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Yeah I definately like the idea, and it's safe to say that it will never be reprinted in the U.S. (blowing up the "Manhattan Tower"?). The ending was kinda dumb.

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Ah, I got to get myself some more Punisher stuff at some point, the trades seem a little pricey for me though. Read Born, Mother Russia and The Cell, loved the writing and the art, even if you can pretty much predict how it comes to an end...with the exception of Born actually, think I noted before how I liked the sinister undertones to the final panel in that story...

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I dont actually think it matters where you start off, as long as its at the beggining of an arc, the storys dont link too much it's basiclly just good old fashioned killing for six months, the final kill is made, then a new arc starts it all over again. FANTASTIC. I think ennis realy did wonders for the punisher because most things before him were just a complete bag of shit. Especially when they tried making him a hero type of guy. Also DD vs Punisher really pissed me off because he was made to be the punisher he hadn't been in fucking years!

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I dont actually think it matters where you start off, as long as its at the beggining of an arc, the storys dont link too much it's basiclly just good old fashioned killing for six months, the final kill is made, then a new arc starts it all over again. FANTASTIC. I think ennis realy did wonders for the punisher because most things before him were just a complete bag of shit. Especially when they tried making him a hero type of guy. Also DD vs Punisher really pissed me off because he was made to be the punisher he hadn't been in fucking years!

 

Word.

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Quite liked the Last Slavers Arc.

Not quite into the Barracuda arc yet.

 

Punisher at it's best is meant to make you feel quite uncomfortable even horrified.

That was achieved quite well in the Slavers.

When Ennis can kep his toilet humour at bay, he can be damn effective.

The two cops still felt like cliches to me, but having the Social worker as the soul of the arc, with her deal with the devil, worked quite well.

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I feel bad, because Frankie Baby is one of my favorites, but I haven't read The End yet. You see, I have this intense aversion to all things Richard Corben, and I saw that he drew it. Is the story good enough to justify looking at cartoon renderings of clay midgets?

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I feel bad, because Frankie Baby is one of my favorites, but I haven't read The End yet.  You see, I have this intense aversion to all things Richard Corben, and I saw that he drew it.  Is the story good enough to justify looking at cartoon renderings of clay midgets?

 

The ends a good story, you should read it, not like that trash xmen the end, tut tut pure and utter shite.

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Thanks, Mick. Did you ever read Wolverine: The End? That was probably the biggest waste of time I've ever spent reading a comic. It sucked big time.

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No, The End is well worth it. Also, if you haven't read it yet, get The Cell ASAP.

 

I'm liking this new Barracuda arc because I think it pegs something that's been mostly missing from the entire series: a known adversary. Batman has the Joker, Superman has Luthor and so on.

 

Pun can mow down nameless, random gangs week after week after week with the only variation being their countries of origin: Italians, Russians, Irish, etc. It gets old.

What the series needs is that one guy, that one name, that one face that thwarts Big Pun every now and again. We got a taste of that with Nicky Cavella, and it was good. Hopefully Barracuda will be around to fuck up Frank's day for a while.

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I understand what you mean Lou, but i thought that one of the great takes on the Punisher as a superhero, was that he didn't have reocurring enemies(Jigsaw notwithstanding).

And if he did, that means he's not doing his job right, if you know what I mean.

I still think that should be emphasized though.

 

Garth was really good about the ending to the whole Nicky Cavella thing.

In the end Frank merely tells Nick that he is nothing special, no arch nemesis or someting.

Even after Cavella pissed on Frank's families corpses, he's still just another target to Frank.

That my friend is great characterisation.

 

But you're right about the focus it gives Frank and the readers, my gripe with The Cell was that it turned Frank's tragedy into a conventional (In a Ennis way atleast) revenge story.

He gets revenge on the mooks who were responsible for his families death.

What really makes The Punisher a bleak prospect, is that he declares war on crime.

Crime as a concept.

An undefeatable concept, if you read the russian propaganda Christian spouts!

Frank's family was accidental, not deliberate.

To Frank, it was crime that killed his family, not those gangsters.

 

Batman and his health, may benefit from seeing the killer of his family brought to justice, but the words healthy and Punisher do not sit side by side!

 

 

Still, The Cell was a kickass read! :icon_twosgun:

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I think Ennis tends to see the selfish side of everyone. He did it with John, making him out to be a junkie and nothing more sometimes, and he does it with Frank, who's original intention was to make the world a better place, although now it seems to be more that he keeps going because that's what he knows, and he really doesn't care enough to thinka botu why he's doing it anymore. If he did, he'd probably have ended up as a Batman type figure, with the masterful palns and all.

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OMG, a lucid post from Apocsol! :blush:

 

You're spot on there mate, but I think that it is a simplistic cynicism, rather than a selfishness.

This pops up often when one uses the word just.

Frank is just a serial killer whacking Bad guy's etc, rather than a murky combination of a lot of factors.

 

I just reread that first Doubleshot issue with Ennis/Quesada on The Punisher and some other folks on Daredevil.

t left a really bad taste in my mouth (Forgive the pun if you remember the issue of which I speak).

Frank tortures a mob boss whilst he at the dentist.

All the art, comprises of shots from out of the mob boss' mouth, but behind his teeth.

He continues to loose more teeth as the issue progresses, as pretentious as it sounds, it works pretty well.

BUT the problem, is that Frank is all talkative and chatty.

Spitting out bad puns and bad humour.

 

This is the often simplistic Ennis of which you and I both speak of.

In this Frank is just an amusing Psycho enjoying the torture, rather than a damaged man quitely and menacingly performing a job that he was chosen to do.

A man at war.

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Punisher:The End was the greatest Punisher story ever written and one of the best comics of the year when it came out! I fucking love that story!

 

Wolverine:The End was nearly unreadable, but don't judge all The End stories based on "Wolverine:The End"....or actually, since that and Punisher:The End are the only two The End stories I've read, maybe all The End stories are really crap and "Punisher:The End" was the only light of brilliance amongst of sea of awfulness.

 

The story with Wolverine:The End though (just to protect Jenkins name) is that the title was given him to re-write in a god-awfully short amount of time. Daniel Ways was the original writer of the story, and he turned in a script which had Wolverine living in a cabin the middle of the Canadian wilderness totally insane, he had become a cannibal. Marvel immediately said, "Wolverine sells action figures! We cannot have a beloved children's character eating humans!" Ways left the project, and Marvel turned to Jenkins, who had written "Wolverine:Origin". Jenkins had to completely rewrite the plot and get his plot synopsis in to Marvel at the last minute.

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Punisher:The End was the greatest Punisher story ever written and one of the best comics of the year when it came out! I fucking love that story!

 

Wolverine:The End was nearly unreadable, but don't judge all The End stories based on "Wolverine:The End"....or actually, since that and Punisher:The End are the only two The End stories I've read, maybe all The End stories are really crap and "Punisher:The End" was the only light of brilliance amongst of sea of awfulness.

 

The story with Wolverine:The End though (just to protect Jenkins name) is that the title was given him to re-write in a god-awfully short amount of time. Daniel Ways was the original writer of the story, and he turned in a script which had Wolverine living in a cabin the middle of the Canadian wilderness totally insane, he had become a cannibal. Marvel immediately said, "Wolverine sells action figures! We cannot have a beloved children's character eating humans!" Ways left the project, and Marvel turned to Jenkins, who had written "Wolverine:Origin". Jenkins had to completely rewrite the plot and get his plot synopsis in to Marvel at the last minute.

 

Oddly enough Wolverine: The End wasnt really the end. They solicited it as "The Last days" or whatever. And when it came out, it was just wolverine living in a cabin trying to get info on his past

 

Then it ended with some guy dying and that was it.

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The Hulk-The End (which was the first The End project I believe) wasn't too bad, but it's been years since I last read it now.

 

Additionally, I prefer The Punisher's end in Earth X, Universe X and Paradise X.

I think that it is more poignant, but less entertaining.

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I hate the idea of 'The End's, because it basically means 'don't worry about them, they'll all be fine, and then die once their old. You might as well stop reading now, you know how it's going to finish. Go on. Stop. Go read DC or something'. Also, The End may have had bad parts, but I think it was the art that really let it down, especially in comparison to Origin. Which just....was....stupidly cool looking and extreeeeeemely important. Go buy.

 

 

And they only seem lucid because of the new avatar. Seeee?

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Additionally, I prefer The Punisher's end in Earth X, Universe X and Paradise X.

I think that it is more poignant, but less entertaining.

 

oooo! Spoil it for me, I haven't read those.

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Marvel said from the beginning "The End" projects are not canonical. They are futures that could happen, but most likely won't.

The "X-Men:The End" series was already proven to be false while it was still being published (3rd Summers' brother is Gambit the clone, my ass!).

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Well, yeah, nothing prophecised in comics ever quite comes true, but then that takes away the point of reading. Who cares if they die, they don't actually! Although they aren't real so that's a moot point really.

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Additionally, I prefer The Punisher's end in Earth X, Universe X and Paradise X.

I think that it is more poignant, but less entertaining.

 

oooo! Spoil it for me, I haven't read those.

Spoilers for Lou.

 

In the not so distant future, corporations rule the earth and cheese has been banned...no wait that's not it. :huh:

 

It's been a while since I have read the entire saga, so i'm not doing it Justice( Pun!) and may have a few details wrong.

 

A few years from the present, Frank is capping mooks like he's on a gameshow, when a family motor vehicle gets caught in his crossfire.

 

He is responsible for the death of an innocent family, much like-you guessed it-his family randomly caught in mob crossfire all those years ago in Central Park.

This is too much for the Marvel U Superheroes who all team up to finally hunt the Punisher down. :icon_twosgun:

 

When they finally find him, Frank has punished himself by shooting himself in the head.

He has done this out of grief, but interestingly, also because there was a creeping thought that had lingered in his head of late, that all men are guilty including himself.

 

Furthermore, the series goes back into Frank's childhood.

We learn that he used to be called Frank Castella, and that he and his friends were italian americans. :ohmy:

From a young age he builds up a resentment for them and himself, pre Vietnam and his family's slaying.

Enough to have had his name changed and mostly whack italian mobsters as the Punisher.

I believe that Garth's upcoming Tyger, set in Castle's youth may do similar things.

 

In the realm of the dead(Long Story! :happy: ), Frank is united with his family, who are unaware that they are dead.

In this realm everything is the same except evryone who is really alive is believed dead and all colours seem to be inverted (Not race, we already have had a black Punisher thank you :glare: ) .

Frank now where's a white T-shirt, with a black skull.

Interestingly, when the Red Skull returned (Way back in Earth X), he was a teenage boy with immense psychic powers and wore a red skulled Punisher T-shirt.

 

It is revealed to Frank that he and his family are infact dead, by Captain America who is now a sort of archangel.

Cap, patrols the realm of the dead trying to convince the souls that they are dead, so that they can move onto the created heaven (By a reincarnated Captain Marvel) of Paradise X.

Including Cap's own family.

Frank is not convinced by Cap.

 

The dead Kingpin, who is aware of his dead state but refuses to give up is empire and hold over the people to move onto Paradise X, sends the dead Jackal and a dead someone else (Jigsaw maybe) to attack Frank and his family.

 

Frank kills the two of them, but a few days later, they are alive again! :ohmy:

They continue to attack him and his family anew.

 

Frank continues to repel each and every attack temporily killing them each time and horrifyingly infront of his own family.

The continous onslaughts and subsequent extreme brutality of Frank's actions, only terrify and poison his family against him.

 

Finally himself convinced, and to convince his family that they are infact dead, Frank has no choice (In his head) but to agonisingly kill them to show them that they cannot actually die...a couple of times. :sad:

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