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The Vertigo Thread

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Doubtful, since Doom Patrol is selling on the combined power of Morrison's name and its own legend. Swamp Thing is selling because people were sufficiently entertained by Moore's stories to try out Vietch.

 

Hellblazer isn't a big enough name and neither is Delano, unjust though it may be...

 

don't depress me like this!

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Guest spiderlegs

I just don't get that Y is the Vertigo flagship title now. I think that's a huge indicator of the falloff. Don't get me wrong, I like Y, but I pick it up in trade and usually used. It's just not a title I seek out, like Hellblazer or when I went bonkers for Transmet. The end of last decade and the beginning of this one seem to have been Vertigo's heyday. If they try to revive it, they'll get formulaic which will suck. We don't need any more nostalgic fixes like Endless Nights anymore, either (I like it less and less with each viewing, so I have stopped looking at it).

 

Is it time for them to close shop, then? Has Vertigo lost the ability to be vital? They haven't been "cutting edge" really since 2001, and that's if you extend a little credit to various titles. I'd hate to see the line go from relevant to ineffectual like that, but where is the savior of this franchise? Or is comic readership down as a whole? Is Vertigo just one facet of a more ominous trend?

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Spider's right. Y is a title I love, but outside of tweeking the swearing and some of the violence (and the dirty filthy sexing), it could easily be a "regular" comic title set in an alternate universe. It's great fun, and very well done, but it doesn't have the "oomph" previous flagship titles had. Out of the current ones, 100 Bullets, Lucifer or Hellblazer seem to fit the bill much better. Vertigo should be the obvious home for titles like Walking Dead, Powers or Ex Machina, yet it's not.

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Wild Storm does seem to be getting more business than Vertigo lately.

 

I've always been bored with "Y:The Last Man", but people do seem to like it. Vertigo has never been cutting edge, as a whole. Vertigo has had certain titles and writers who were "cutting edge" throughout their history, but as a whole, they're just as "cutting edge" as DC, proper.

Looking back at the history of Vertigo, you'll see that in 1999-2000, Vertigo looked to be a dead horse. But, they came back from that, so who knows? Maybe the next Vertigo era is just around the corner?

I just think it would be a damn shame to lose a mainstream "mature readers" comic company at this point!

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I just don't get that Y is the Vertigo flagship title now. I think that's a huge indicator of the falloff. Don't get me wrong, I like Y, but I pick it up in trade and usually used. It's just not a title I seek out, like Hellblazer or when I went bonkers for Transmet. The end of last decade and the beginning of this one seem to have been Vertigo's heyday. If they try to revive it, they'll get formulaic which will suck. We don't need any more nostalgic fixes like Endless Nights anymore, either (I like it less and less with each viewing, so I have stopped looking at it).

 

Is it time for them to close shop, then? Has Vertigo lost the ability to be vital? They haven't been "cutting edge" really since 2001, and that's if you extend a little credit to various titles. I'd hate to see the line go from relevant to ineffectual like that, but where is the savior of this franchise? Or is comic readership down as a whole? Is Vertigo just one facet of a more ominous trend?

 

I don't know. to some extend, the same things you get in Vertigo can now be found in the Wildstorm stuff (I don't see how Kev can be rated any lower than Preacher, for example. and Sleeper was as harsh as any Vertigo title). I like the idea of Vertigo moving on a bit to the OGN field (it seems to be heading that way, when you see the amount of graphic novels they announced at SDCC. then again, DC charges extraordinary prices for their graphic novels, so I'm not sure how succesful that will be), instead of the monthlies. that said, I think Vertigo was never really cutting edge, when compared to the stuff some of the smaller publishers are putting out. what's mainly missing these days, in my opinion, is the intellect. stuff like Hellblazer, Sandman, Shade, Animal Man, The Invisibles were all rather intelligent stuff. these days, the main focus lies on adventure (Y The Last Man - I mean, how much of the story really deals with the sociology behind all the world's men dying? 15% of the entire story?) spy stuff (100 Bullets, Losers), and horror. I'd only call Lucifer a truly intelligent book right now. I've ofen thought of IDW as Vertigo Lite: they do the swearing and the gore, but they don't give it any heart. I find that lacking in a lot of Vertigo stuff these days as well. and yes, that also includes Fables: I enjoy the series a lot, but when you think about it, it's nothing more than fantasy mixed with satire.

 

I mean, Vertigo often states in its ads that it's "cutting edge". but where the hell is that edge most of the time?

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Marketing, my man! Marketing!

 

I also had the idea that Vertigo was going the G.N. route, but Paradox Press went in that same direction, and was very quickly forgotten about. I don't think it's a good business decision.

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This thread is really depressing me......

 

where're all the comics writers I used to love anyway - Gaiman's writing books, Alan Moore's retired, I have no idea what Delano, Jenkins, Ellis, Ennis are doing (though this is partly cos of my lack of ability to follow the comics scene these days). Mike Carey's the only one of my old favourites thats still putting out quality work with Lucifer.

 

I dont get Y being a flagship title either. And this is the first I heard of such a concept. I get that HB's readership is down but I couldve sworn it was a very visible title???? Not to mention the longest running one. Or even Lucifer would work. But Y??!! Its fun, but come on.....

 

I really hope some good things happen soon......I look back at the days of Preacher, Sandman, Transmetropolitan, The Invisibles and I want to bawl.....

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This thread is really depressing me......

 

where're all the comics writers I used to love anyway - Gaiman's writing books, Alan Moore's retired, I have no idea what Delano, Jenkins, Ellis, Ennis are doing (though this is partly cos of my lack of ability to follow the comics scene these days). Mike Carey's the only one of my old favourites thats still putting out quality work with Lucifer.

 

I dont get Y being a flagship title either. And this is the first I heard of such a concept. I get that HB's readership is down but I couldve sworn it was a very visible title???? Not to mention the longest running one. Or even Lucifer would work. But Y??!! Its fun, but come on.....

 

I really hope some good things happen soon......I look back at the days of Preacher, Sandman, Transmetropolitan, The Invisibles and I want to bawl.....

 

Y and Fables are the bestselling Vertigo titles at the moment. and yes, that is depressing.

 

to be fair, Christian, the graphic novel market has changed tremendously over the last years: look at the good sales of stuff like Blankets, manga trades, Dan Clowes' stuff, Bone and others. I do think Paradox was way ahead of its time with its manga sized black and white trade bookstyle. I wonder how they'd sell these days if properly marketed towards bookstores?

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Hmmmm, interesting points to consider, sethos.

Although I realize that the books you mentioned as considered popular comics due to their mainstream attention, I also wonder what the sales are on those books?

 

Abhi-Delano is facing personal problems, but plans to return to comics someday, although not to DC.

Jenkins has a "Vatican murder mystery" mini-series coming out from Dark Horse pretty soon. I believe he's dealing will illness?

Ennis is at Marvel writing Punisher & a Ghost Rider mini.

Ellis is at Marvel writing everything they push his way, some stuff for DC, and is still lurking around WildStorm.

Even though Alan Moore is retired, he still comes out with the occasional comic, every so often. Recently a "Top 10" G.N. and co-writing that "Albion" series from WildStorm with his daughter.

Neil Gaiman is planning to write another mini for Marvel sometime next year.

 

As far as Y being the flagship title, I think it's being called that because it's the best selling Vertigo title. That's the only reason I can find.

H.B. has always been a red headed step child to Vertigo. I really have no idea why....

"Lucifer" will be ending within a year, so I'm guessing that's why it's not being considered a flag ship title.

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Hmmmm, interesting points to consider, sethos.

Although I realize that the books you mentioned as considered popular comics due to their mainstream attention, I also wonder what the sales are on those books?

 

not sure but I do know that Craig Thompson made at least 150,000 dollars off Blankets (I think I read somewhere about two years ago that it sold around 70,000 copies. which is very good for a 30 dollar graphic novel by someone who was pretty unknown till that time). and certain manga are outselling every trade that DC and Marvel can put out. every fucking month.

 

As far as Y being the flagship title, I think it's being called that because it's the best selling Vertigo title. That's the only reason I can find.

H.B. has always been a red headed step child to Vertigo. I really have no idea why....

 

sales = flagship title. HB got some credit now due to the movie doing decent business, but it has never been a huge seller. it is, however, the longest running Vertigo title, of course.

 

"Lucifer" will be ending within a year, so I'm guessing that's why it's not being considered a flag ship title.

 

it also sells quite badly in monthlies.

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"Lucifer" will be ending within a year, so I'm guessing that's why it's not being considered a flag ship title.

 

it also sells quite badly in monthlies.

 

I can see why...I think I'd find it extremely hard to read it in monthly form. It isnt exactly accessible to those who start reading from the middle either....

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Guest spiderlegs

How's this for irony? As much as I loved Sandman and Carey's run on Hellblazer, I've NEVER really gotten into Lucifer (I have 2 of the trades).I wonder if it just has the same effect on other readers that it does on me...

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How's this for irony? As much as I loved Sandman and Carey's run on Hellblazer, I've NEVER really gotten into Lucifer (I have 2 of the trades).I wonder if it just has the same effect on other readers that it does on me...

 

I love the hell out of the Lucifer series but I can see why some people may not like it. It really can be somewhat hard to get into and the various narrative threads are getting increasingly complex. Another major complaint for me is the art - I really hate it.

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I've never had a lot problems following "Lucifer", and I have a horrid memory, in which I forget what happened in comics from month to month. I never found there to be too many plot threads in "Lucifer", like some other comics.

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I've never had a lot problems following "Lucifer", and I have a horrid memory, in which I forget what happened in comics from month to month. I never found there to be too many plot threads in "Lucifer", like some other comics.

It's because it's one those type series that reads better in trades. Sandman was suposedly like that, Starman, and I think Y sometimes reads better in trades. Hell Bendis's DD reads better in trades.

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Christian, Vertigo was NEVER "cutting edge," unless viewed in the context of titles put out by a major publisher. The shift has been more, as its been said, from the "intellectual" to the "action-driven."

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Which does indeed make Vertigo "cutting edge" in the beginning!

I read what Sethos said, and he is correct, but by saying that a major publisher was willing to take the chances and do these stories in the mainstream of comicdom does indeed make Vertigo "cutting edge".

To deny that would be like saying "most indy comic books should not be considered cutting edge because novels were doing this years before". In the realm of comicdom, they would still be considered "cutting edge".

 

EDIT:Actually, now that I think about it, I think we're underestimating Vertigo, at least a bit, as unless I'm not thinking of a comic title or I never head of it, I don't think we had ever seen anything like the following in comicdom:

1.Sandman

2.Morrison's Doom Patrol

3.Delano's Hellblazer-OK, I might be heavily biased here.

4.Invisibles

5.WE 3-Because of the narrative technique.

6.Seekers into the Mystery

7.Seven Miles a Second

8.Congo Bill-as never has the treatment of a talking ape made me cry before :lol:

9.I, Paparazzi-as never had a piece of shite ever stunk so bad! :lol:

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Guest spiderlegs

I think "God Riding Shotgun" being published in this increasingly "puritan evangelical United States of America under god" was rather daring. Making fun of the god of Moses and Abraham, as well as the one true redeemer (cough...cough...) is always risky fare when advertisers are concerned. And I can imagine alot of people were offended by Mr. Ellis' many gleefully written stabs at religion, even though I'm sure many laughed gleefully as I did.

 

Is challenging an established perception of something so sacred as religion cutting edge? How about publishing an issue where an angry bald short guy with tattoos is just walking around a city describing horrible things which have happened to various people, like rapes, child-prostitution, murders, and other tragedies; it has no action and is all narrative about extremely uncomfortable subject matters. Was that cutting edge?

 

I define cutting edge as it is applied to the arts as something which makes someone either reconsider thier own POV, or reconsider someone else's even if it disagrees with his/her own. I dunno, VERTIGO has been fairly cutting edge if you define it like that....

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I thought Transmetro kicked ass. I loved when he kicked kicked the shite out of that guy.

 

Transmetro was good up untill the end.

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Lucifer is a blinding read and makes great use of longform storytelling, the stories run in and out of each other, with various different characters popping up all over the shop. Things got a little bogged down around #50ish but then all of a sudden Fenrir & company pop up and it's fucking on again. Also - Mike uses the big words and talks clever, it's not just about the psycho-killer Old Gods.

 

Somebody mentioned Powers & Ex-Machina up above, neither of which I think would fit well with Vertigo, the line may have spun out of mature stories with superheroes but the titles in question are too dyed in their superhero elements to work alongside Fables and 100 Bullets.

 

Winter Soldiers, finally out this week, was originally lined up at Vertigo but is now being published through Wildstorm.

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Lucifer is a blinding read and makes great use of longform storytelling, the stories run in and out of each other, with various different characters popping up all over the shop. 

 

Exactly. This is just why I think the series doesnt read so well in monthly format but is just bloody brilliant to absorb in big chunks in TPBs.

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I love it in monthlies, but I have a weird memory for detail even if I forget everything else.

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