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JohnMcMahon

The Spoiler Filled Infinite Crisis Thread!

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I may have completely missed this, but I thought Mockingbird-Lex was the real Lex. The one in charge of the Society was the alterna-universe one. I was pretty sure that he tells Pariah this just before killing him.

It is :blink: damn keeping all this straight has been making my head hurt.

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The Luthor on the cover of Villains United (Bad Colour Scheme Mechanical Suit Original Lex.) has green eyes. The one in charge of the society has blue eyes.

 

I don't know if there's any relevance to that, but I thought I might point it out.

 

I think Villains United was probably the best of the Lead-in series.

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Trades for the lead-in minis should be available RIGHT NOW but, knowing DC, they'll come out in March next year.

 

I'm about three issues into the Crisis trade and, bad (oh so bad) costumes aside, it's pretty good fun - my favourite part so far has all of DC's WW2 characters fighting alongside some superheroes against Nazis and Shadowmen, while trying to protect a big golden tower. It's funky seeing all of these layers of history laid out in one book - from cowboys to GIs to spacemen - fun!

 

Liked the way it opened with the Earth-2 Evil Fucker League, if only cause I got to see what pre-Crisis Owlman looked like.

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Yeah, weird seeing Johnny boy caught up in all that nonsense - though given the state of those around him, he doesn't really stand out that much!

 

About 1/2 way through it (keep getting distracted!) at the moment and I'm wondering if the Batman/Superman/Wonderwoman falling out in Infinite is down to some kind of Psycho Pirate shenanigan ala the chaos he wrecked on the three worlds in the original Crisis.

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PSYCHO PIRATE!

:biggrin:

 

OK, this is really fanboyish, and I'm usually not, but if J.C. is involved in the current Crisis, shouldn't Spectre have gone after J.C. in the "Days of Vengeance" mini-series? Spectre was out to destroy all the magicians in the DCU, and had suceeded in taking out all the major ones. Shouldn't John have been in consideration somewhere?

I'm glad he wasn't, as I don't see John being the same as Phantom Stranger and what have you, but the reason I heard was that "Hellblazer" is a Vertigo comic and therefore, characters are no eligible to be used in the DCU anymore.

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How was he in "Crisis" then?

Was it a ripping away of the veil between the DC and Vertigo U? Or, was it some time parallel going back to the time when John did exist in the DCU?

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How was he in "Crisis" then?

 

The cameo appearance was in the original Crisis On Infinite Earths, which John's reading at the moment. Constantine hasn't been referenced in Infinite Crisis, and presumably won't be, either.

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OH! That explains it!

I thought John was reading "Infinite Crisis".

 

I enjoyed the original "Crisis", although I found it very "cramped".

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I thought John was reading "Infinite Crisis".

 

He is. After years of strenuous training, our esteemed leader and gracious host has honed his mighty mental powers to to point where he can actually follow the events of more than one book at the same time. I realise that such a concept is beyond the grasp of lesser mortals such as ourselves, but it's true.

 

:)

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There's been an informal 'rule' keeping the two universes separate ever since the Vertigo line was created, and it's been enforced more and more rigidly as the years have gone by. The official line with regard to things like the superhero appearances back in Swamp Thing, Constantine's presence at Hal Jordan's funeral, and even things like Zatanna's appearance in 'Forty', seems to be "shut up and pretend they never happened".

 

As John alluded to just above, in fact, apparently a pre-release version of Grant Morrison's recent Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #1 included a flashback to her father Zatara's death, in a scene which contained an explicit reference to Constantine (who was present in the Swamp Thing issue where Zatara's death originally took place). The scene in question was still in the finished issue of Zatanna, but there was no longer any mention of Constantine in it - the stated reason being that Seven Soldiers is taking place in the DCU 'proper', and editorial didn't want any blurring of the boundaries between the Vertigo and DC Universes.

 

Absolutely stupid, of course, but whatcha gonna do? I tend to just ignore it, to be honest - it's not like it has any real impact on my enjoyment of the comics, from either then or now.

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There's been an informal 'rule' keeping the two universes separate ever since the Vertigo line was created, and it's been enforced more and more rigidly as the years have gone by. The official line with regard to things like the superhero appearances back in Swamp Thing, Constantine's presence at Hal Jordan's funeral, and even things like Zatanna's appearance in 'Forty', seems to be "shut up and pretend they never happened".

 

As John alluded to just above, in fact, apparently a pre-release version of Grant Morrison's recent Seven Soldiers: Zatanna #1 included a flashback to her father Zatara's death, in a scene which contained an explicit reference to Constantine (who was present in the Swamp Thing issue where Zatara's death originally took place). The scene in question was still in the finished issue of Zatanna, but there was no longer any mention of Constantine in it - the stated reason being that Seven Soldiers is taking place in the DCU 'proper', and editorial didn't want any blurring of the boundaries between the Vertigo and DC Universes.

 

Absolutely stupid, of course, but whatcha gonna do? I tend to just ignore it, to be honest - it's not like it has any real impact on my enjoyment of the comics, from either then or now.

 

Especially stupid because Zatanna also appeared in the Books of Magic series (the regular series, as well as the mini), and Swamp Thing was in Starman.

 

If I could run the whole place for a day, Batman would show up in Hellblazer, and Tim Hunter would join the Outsiders! Ha! Take that, continuity! Mwahaha!

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Zatanna also had her own book from Vertigo, so apparently there is "mature Zatanna" for us lonely fanboys and "mainstream Zatanna" for all the kiddies looking for a positive female role model.

 

I'm guessing "Infinite Crisis" will fix all these problems.

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Zatanna is one of a couple of characters who sort of transcends the gap between the DCU and Vertigo Universe - the Phantom Stranger is another. Both characters have appeared in both DCU and Vertigo series over the past few years - I believe they're the only ones who do so anymore, though.

 

I'm guessing "Infinite Crisis" will fix all these problems.

 

I'm guessing it won't, because they're not really problems unless you let them be. To be honest, I can see both sides - Constantine's world, as it's been written over the past 10-15 years, is quite obviously not the same one inhabited by Superman, Wonder Woman et al, so if the universes were kept together, you just know that there'd be anal fanboys complaining about the lack of internal consistency with regard to things like the events of Infinite Crisis not impacting on Hellblazer, or the apocalypse in Staring At The Wall not being at least referenced in the relevant issue of Superman.

 

It's a shame that the rules of continuity/inter-title relations have to be so rigidly defined, mind. Personally, I prefer the more vague notion that all titles should exist in their own, isolated "universe", except when they don't. If you see what I mean. For example, Superman should be able to appear in a Batman story from time to time, but if he's not there, there shouldn't be any reason or excuse for readers to say "so, why isn't he getting Superman to help him with this case?"

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The thing is, they still break that rule from time to time - Constantine made cameos in Dr Fate and Hitman (in fact, the latter directly tied up a couple of plot threads from Ennis' Hellblazer run) and some of the Endless turned up in one of Grant Morrison's JSA arcs. And, of course, Remiel and Duma from the Sandman both appeared in Ennis' The Demon.

 

I don't know why they bother, really. It made sense when Vertigo was just starting out, to stop kids from picking up Ennis' Hellblazer because that cool Constantine guy appeared in Batman or whatever. But when Identity Crisis has women being raped and burnt to death and Hard Time is published under a new DC Mature Readers imprint, it does seem redundant.

 

The only remaining defence is that for some characters, appearing in superhero books might actually work against them. That's why Morrison had to invent Willoughby Kipling for his Doom Patrol run instead of using Constantine like he wanted to; the editors thought that seeing John hanging around with Cliff Steele would undermine the sense of realism in his own title.

 

But you could say that about John's appearance in Shade the Changing Man, a book which explicitly toyed with both superheroism and the nature of fiction in a way most unsuited to Hellblazer. If he can appear there, why can't he go for a walk down Danny the Street?

 

So long as the superhero stuff doesn't infringe on Hellblazer itself, it doesn't really matter what John does outside the comic. Anyone who can make the neccessary disconnect between the events of Staring at the Wall and the rest of the DC/Vertigo universe being unaffected can surely handle seeing John appear in, say, Gotham Central (a title he would be perfect for).

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The thing is, they still break that rule from time to time - Constantine made cameos in Dr Fate and Hitman (in fact, the latter directly tied up a couple of plot threads from Ennis' Hellblazer run) and some of the Endless turned up in one of Grant Morrison's JSA arcs. And, of course, Remiel and Duma from the Sandman both appeared in Ennis' The Demon.

 

Those were all a good few years ago, mind. Since about 2000/2001, the divide has been pretty rigidly observed (with the already-mentioned exceptions of Zatanna and the Phantom Stranger, both of whom seem to exist in both universes).

 

I agree with everything else you said, though. But inter-title continuity is something which can be fun from time to time, when it's used to do something worthwhile, but the rest of the time, it can, and should, be ignored. Most of the time it doesn't matter worth a damn what a character's doing in other titles, as long as their activities and personality remain consistent within their own book - to use a more recent example, does/should anyone really care if Constantine's appearances in the new Swamp Thing don't tie in precisely with concurrent events in Hellblazer (which they may or may not - I don't know, because I'm not reading the title)?

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To be honest, I can see both sides - Constantine's world, as it's been written over the past 10-15 years, is quite obviously not the same one inhabited by Superman, Wonder Woman et al

 

I didn't see a problem if it was the same world. John's "adventures" tend to be very contained to his immediate surroundings, or can only be witnessed by those "in the know," and since the DC Universe is so clearly America-centered, it's not much of a stretch that the JLA gang aren't going to notice the goings-on of a British street magician across the pond.

 

I have no problem with John being away from all that 99% of the time...I just always enjoyed when he'd pop up in that 1% and show everyone what's what. No harm, no foul, to either side's continuity.

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If you read the rest of that sentence, you'll see that I agree with you - I was just commenting that there are undoubtedly far too many arseholes out there who would object, and that's why the rule was probably introduced in the first place. Personally, I'd love to see Constantine turn up in JLA-related comics, from time to time, and would have no problem disconnecting that from the self-contained world he inhabits in his own title.

 

Written by the right person, I'd absolutely love to read a good Elseworlds in which Constantine, rather than Kyle Rayner, received that last Green Lantern ring, for a start. Just imagine the comedy potential...

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There's always that analytical part of the brain when reading a story that goes, "Gee, Spider Man was the only superhero in a city full of superheroes to be able to fight that battle, huh?"

I usually don't think that way, because of suspension of disbelief, but I do recognize the fact when other people think that way.

 

BUT, with John Constantine, I'm far more analytical. I see John as being "real", and while I don't have a problem with John meeting Phantom Stranger once in a while, I do have a problem thinking of John meeting up with Superman. John's world just isn't the same as the DCU, but P.S. is a character who I see as existing on the fringe of the DCU, so he's not as jarring to me as a world renowned superhero in colourful spandex coming to save the day.

 

Another problem I see is that the DCU has Gotham City, Metropolis, Qurac, etc. The Marvel U was always meant to be our world only an alternate version, whereas the DCU always seperated itself from attempting to be so realistic. The opposite of John's world.

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I was just commenting that there are undoubtedly far too many arseholes out there who would object

 

BUT, with John Constantine, I'm far more analytical. I see John as being "real", and while I don't have a problem with John meeting Phantom Stranger once in a while, I do have a problem thinking of John meeting up with Superman.

 

See? :p

 

Sorry, Christian. I couldn't resist. But to be fair, you walked into that one...

 

:wink:

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So long as the superhero stuff doesn't infringe on Hellblazer itself, it doesn't really matter what John does outside the comic. Anyone who can make the neccessary disconnect between the events of Staring at the Wall and the rest of the DC/Vertigo universe being unaffected can surely handle seeing John appear in, say, Gotham Central (a title he would be perfect for).

 

I completely agree with James here. I think John should have free reign in the DC Universe as long as he isn't misused. Just as long as they keep any references or characters that are remotely superheroic (ie, tights) out of the Hellblazer title.

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