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JohnMcMahon

The Spoiler Filled Infinite Crisis Thread!

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The original Crisis just didn't want to end, did it ?

 

Once it reached the half-way point every issue seemed to end with the Anti-Monitor getting his arse-whipped only to show up somewhere else going "Result! Time for plan E!".

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I too don't have a problem with Constantine making the odd cameo in certain DCU titles but don't want any mainstream DCU superheros in Hellblazer unless it's done really well in a non-distracting manner. The problem for me is the the whole DCU continunity thing gives me a headache. I assume that every Constantine appearance so far has been the same character. So if there's a Constantine cameo in some DCU title that's later decided to be apocryphal, I don't want to try to figure out which Constantine belongs to which alternate universe. I'm not sure if that's me being fan-boyish or just lazy.

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So if there's a Constantine cameo in some DCU title that's later decided to be apocryphal, I don't want to try to figure out which Constantine belongs to which alternate universe.

 

Well, don't bother, then. It's not like it has any impact at all on Hellblazer itself (particularly since no superhero-related characters, with the arguable exceptions of Zatanna and the Phantom Stranger, have ever appeared in the title, and, like most people here, I wouldn't want them to).

 

I'm just genuinely curious, since a few people seem to care a lot more about this sort of thing than me - why does it matter? I'm not opposed to the idea of inter-title continuity (and it doesn't bother me at all that, for example, there's no real way to reconcile the versions of Batman which appear in, respectively, JLA and Detective Comics - both titles I've enjoyed at various times - as being the same character), but since Hellblazer has , from the beginning, been an almost exclusively self-contained title (with the exception of that early crossover with Swamp Thing, which seems to have been a one-off experiment which no-one really wants to see repeated), why would it matter if he occasionally turned up in, say, JLA or Infinite Crisis?

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Because John Constantine has always been a "real" character to me. It's a cradle shock to see John chatting with Batman, since Batman is so obviously fictitious. He just doesn't fit in our world, like John does.

 

I wouldn't worry about the "alternate J.C." thing so much though, as John has been written pretty consistently over the years. It's not like he went through a faze where he dressed in purple leisure suits and fought martians on the moon along with Superman.

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But surely that's a failing on your part, not one inherent to the concept of a shared universe? Firstly, unless you're totally incapable of making the necessary disconnect, the stories told within the pages of Hellblazer would be just as 'real' as they ever were - if it were that much of a problem for you, surely it'd be easy enough to rationalise the Constantine appearing in other titles as an "alternate" version of the character, at least for your own satisfaction?

 

I just don't see the point in limiting the range of stories which can be told using this interesting, appealling character just to satisfy a desire to maintain the illusory "reality" of a character who is, first and foremost, fictional. Yes, John fits plausibly into a fairly recognizable version of our world - but, as James points out, he'd fit perfectly into the world of, for example, Gotham Central too - and nothing about the latter case would have to have any impact on the former, unless you, as the reader, allowed it to do so.

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Like I said I don't mind Constantine used sparingly in certain DCU titles as long as he's recognizably the same character, which is easy to do with such a malleable character as John. One thing I like about the character is the sense of history to him. I have no problem with the fact that the same Constantine we're reading about now is the same Constantine who was once aborad the Monitor's spaceship in Crisis. John's someone who can adapt to radically different situations. Heros with longer histories such as Batman and Spiderman seem to always exist in the "now" and I'm never sure if the Spidey stories I read as a kid are part of the current Spiderman's history. With a unique character as Constantine I don't want to wonder if that incident where John was in the same room as Batman and Killer Croc ever really happened. It's a bit geeky on my part to want all of Constantine's appearance to fit into a consequtive timeline but with the way the DCU is always re-writing its history, I'd rather keep John away from such confusion.

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Ah...that I can very much sympathise with, Andy - if there's one thing everyone here seems to agree on, it's that, whatever happens outside Hellblazer, the title itself should remain self-contained and unaffected by any such goings-on. I definitely understand (and share) your fondness for the history of the character, and it's one of the more interesting things about the complete Hellblazer backstory - it's rare for such a long-running series to take place in what has been, more or less, real time, and I certainly wouldn't want that to be lost. Mind you, in the next few years I'd suspect that, if the title doesn't come to an end, we'll have to accept some fudging of the timeline - I can't see Vertigo being happy with the notion of Constantine as a 60+ man, even if it would appeal to me as a reader.

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So is DC cutting Swamp Thing out of the big picture, too? He's had far more superhero interaction than John, yet is just as mired in the scariness of the Vertigo Universe.

 

And what about Sandman?

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As far as I know, the new incarnation of Swamp Thing is exclusively Vertigo-bound. As to Sandman - well, it's finished, so it's not really a consideration.

 

They're not so much retconning as they are ignoring the issue, and hoping people won't pick at it too closely. Which is the sensible way to do it, as far as I'm concerned.

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I'm with Mark on this issue it doesn't bother me in the slightest I can handle the thought that Superman and John Constantine share the same universe as long as the seperation is there.

 

I can't see why anyone would put the spandex-clad ones in Hellblazer anyhow because they don't suit the tone of the comic at all, but equally that doesn't mean there shouldn't be some cross over between titles if it makes sense and keeps the tone of whichever comic it occurs in consistent.

 

I think the Batman-Starman-Hellboy crossover was an excellent example of that.

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Hmm, having now caught up with the Countdown miniseries, which I'd hoped would solve my multiple confusions at Infinite Crisis #1... I'm still confused. Anyone care to unconfuse me on the following?

 

- What happened to the Watchtower and Martian Manhunter?

- Where, when and how did Psycho Pirate reappear? Last I saw, he was twitching in an asylum in Animal Man.

- Where the flaming fuck did Bizarro pop up from? And as an adjunct, why - oh GOD why - does he even still exist?

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Hmm, having now caught up with the Countdown miniseries, which I'd hoped would solve my multiple confusions at Infinite Crisis #1... I'm still confused. Anyone care to unconfuse me on the following?

 

- What happened to the Watchtower and Martian Manhunter?

 

See JLA #119. J'Onn is alone in the Watchtower, and is joined by a mysterious figure who bypasses security systems by being...well, Superman. Apparently. Then everything blows up.

 

Where, when and how did Psycho Pirate reappear? Last I saw, he was twitching in an asylum in Animal Man.

 

Good question. Me too.

 

Where the flaming fuck did Bizarro pop up from? And as an adjunct, why - oh GOD why - does he even still exist?

 

Ask Geoff Johns. One would really hope he has a good answer.

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They did come out with that "Bizarro" G.N. anthology (or whatever it was) last year. It had a short story by Harvey Pekar in it, I remember.

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BUT, with John Constantine, I'm far more analytical. I see John as being "real", and while I don't have a problem with John meeting Phantom Stranger once in a while, I do have a problem thinking of John meeting up with Superman. John's world just isn't the same as the DCU, but P.S. is a character who I see as existing on the fringe of the DCU, so he's not as jarring to me as a world renowned superhero in colourful spandex coming to save the day.

 

Chiming in favor of Christian's POV on this one. The flavor of the two just don't mesh, IMO. I could bearably see JC in Gotham, but there's still something that just feels very incongruous about seeing him guest in those series. It would feel as weird to me to see JC pairing up with Superman in some supernatural romp as it would for me to see Rainbow Brite comparing costume tips with the Spectre.

 

Actually, I might like to see that second one. :biggrin:

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- Where, when and how did Psycho Pirate reappear? Last I saw, he was twitching in an asylum in Animal Man.

 

In the JSA: Classified #1-4 arc. Obviously they just pulled him out of limbo, as was the point in Animal Man.

 

As for Bizarro, Jeph Loeb has been using him in Superman/Batman.

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Chiming in favor of Christian's POV on this one. The flavor of the two just don't mesh, IMO. I could bearably see JC in Gotham, but there's still something that just feels very incongruous about seeing him guest in those series. It would feel as weird to me to see JC pairing up with Superman in some supernatural romp as it would for me to see Rainbow Brite comparing costume tips with the Spectre.

 

Yeah, but what if John appeared in Gotham Central or a Spectre comic? He'd look dumb next to Superman, but there are pockets of the DC universe that he would really work in - anything "realistic" or magical.

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Yeah, but what if John appeared in Gotham Central or a Spectre comic? He'd look dumb next to Superman, but there are pockets of the DC universe that he would really work in - anything "realistic" or magical.

 

If you keep that down to "magical" only, I'd be down. But I'd want it in writing. In blood. And with a nice taco platter two.

 

Hmm, I think I'm late for lunch. :biggrin:

 

So, did anyone catch issue 2 today? I picked it up. It was nice, but damn, could DC have shoved any more disparate plotlines together into this event?

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So has everyone read the second issue of this yet. I have to say i'm liking the direction they are going with this whole Kal-L thing....

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So has everyone read the second issue of this yet. I have to say i'm liking the direction they are going with this whole Kal-L thing....

 

 

This is -Seth- posting from work and i can't remember my log-in password or how to do n-dashes on a pc (i auto log in at home on my mac).

 

Anyway, I like the whole Kal-L thing as well. It will be interesting how this all pans out. They are going to try and rework things so the earth is more like the happy-go-lucky earth of Earth-2 or whatever. It will be neat to see how powergirl, supergirl turns out as well as if Supes, the flash, and whoever else dies again. Also, did anyone notice the Batsignal squarely on the Spectre's chest in Issue 1? Foreshadowing maybe?

 

And why the hell are all the omacs surrounding Nightwing in issue 1? BTW I hat Bruce for being such a cocksmoker and allowing OMAC to go so crazy as well as being responsible for the omac nano-virii injections hidden as flu-shot: Wayntech was id'd as doing it as Anton Geist stated as such in Aquaman 35.

 

J'onzz is hiding out somewhere and is only talking to Manitou Dawn righ tnow as shown in JLA. Also, a comic shop owner who was right about Powergirl's origin stated: "look at the first and second issue of Kingdom (not kingdom come by alex ross) and look at the panels showing the "S". It's squiggly like a golden age s and so the dude who blew the station may be another supes from another timeline or something.

 

Also, with the mini-series Clark Kent where a boy existed with supes namesake but had no powers then got powers, i wonder if that is a new supes prime??? I never read the series so i'm only guessing.

 

This series needs to come out faster. :p

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"with the mini-series Clark Kent where a boy existed with supes namesake but had no powers then got powers, i wonder if that is a new supes prime??? "

 

That was Kurt Busiek's "Superman: Secret Identity". It was an Elseworlds tale, so that story will have no bearing on anything else.

It's a damn good story though. Hunt it down and read it!

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Another fun issue though the resolution would appear to be writ large in mile-high glowing letters -

 

Young Lex is manipulating Old Supes which'll lead to said aul fella sacificing himself and inspiring the current reality's heroes to be more...um...heroic.

 

I know 'corporate comics are all about the illusion of change' but it feels like there's an awful lot going on here - from the aces intro with Animal Man (it was nice to see the clan, with nary a lesbian in sight, again) to the cracking pages with the Joker right through the final page which, depending on your disposition, reveals Old Supes to be either the true hero or villain of the piece.

 

The OMACs attack Amazon land was also pretty wicked!

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"with the mini-series Clark Kent where a boy existed with supes namesake but had no powers then got powers, i wonder if that is a new supes prime??? "

 

That was Kurt Busiek's "Superman: Secret Identity". It was an Elseworlds tale, so that story will have no bearing on anything else.

It's a damn good story though. Hunt it down and read it!

 

 

i'll have to do that. too bad it is elseworlds though.

 

it will be neat to see how the attack on themyscira (sp?) turns out in the WW comic which i've been getting since the Superman crossover where she killed Max Lord, who we all know will come back since he's a cyborg underneath that flesh suit anyway.

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i'll have to do that. too bad it is elseworlds though.

 

Forgive me if I'm being stupid, but why's that "too bad"? It's a story which quite explicitly doesn't take place in the DC Universe, so even if it wasn't labelled as an "Elseworlds", it'd effectively have been one. Just read and enjoy it, is what I say - 'cos Christian's right, it was excellent.

 

the Superman crossover where she killed Max Lord, who we all know will come back since he's a cyborg underneath that flesh suit anyway.

 

Nope. Can't remember where I saw this, but apparently the "Max is a cyborg" thing has been retconned - he was really human, and he's really dead. That doesn't mean he can't come back anyway, of course, but...

 

Infinite Crisis #2 was big fun, for all that it was largely exposition for people who haven't read/don't remember the details of Crisis On Infinite Earths. The final couple of pages do make the basic set-up pretty clear - I think it can be pretty safely assumed that DC won't actually be bringing back the pre-crisis Earth-2 as the only extant universe (firstly, it'd be a bit of a silly thing to do from a marketing standpoint, since it's a world in which Batman is dead, and secondly, it'd be such a huge step backwards that I doubt they'd have the balls. It was always an "alternative" universe pre-Crisis, anyway), so I'm looking forward to a big fight between the old Superman and his current counterpart, at the end of which both of them will realise that the other is partly correct, and they'll team up to fight some greater menace, get the allies back together, and Create A New And Better World. Somehow.

 

All of which should be fun. On a related note, if this week's issue of Gotham Central doesn't end up being one of the best Infinite Crisis-related comics to see publication over the next 6 months, I'll be very surprised. A brilliant little stand-alone story, and I'd thoroughly recommend it to anyone who read and enjoyed the first issue of Crisis, whether they're familiar with GC or not.

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the Superman crossover where she killed Max Lord, who we all know will come back since he's a cyborg underneath that flesh suit anyway.

 

Nope. Can't remember where I saw this, but apparently the "Max is a cyborg" thing has been retconned - he was really human, and he's really dead. That doesn't mean he can't come back anyway, of course, but...

 

I think it was Dan Didio who said as much during some interview about the planning of the whole IC. It was when they were talking about who to use in that slot, Max or 2 others guys whom i don't think i'd ever heard of before. Anyway, someone brought up that Max was a Cyborg, and Didio said to just ignore that. So by company policy, Max is human, but that has never been directly refered to on the printed 4-color page. I'm sure in a few years some enterprising young writer will find a way to bring him back. Hell, this Max could have been the doppleganger from the Bondage Universe that Booster sent the gang to in the last Giffen mini....

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