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Look James(B) we've been going over this again and again for almost a year, so forgive us for not enumerating our different feelings about the film. Consider that there was a concerted effort by those involved (tenuously and directly) in the film to paint any comics fan who expressed dislike for the film as "not happy that he was not a blond englishman" etc.

Only one person connected with the film ever took the time to address the very diverse problems that we (collectively) had, and loads of fans of Keanu came here and were very nice as James(W) said without a trace fo sarcasm that you read into it. (See what happened there? You assumed the worst when the best was true.)

 

Now, if you are interested in seeing how the Hivemind works here, read these three simple threads for a picture of diversity.

 

Reasons for prejudice against the film.

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1113

 

Seen Constanteen? Feedback thread.

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=981

 

What version of the DVD do you own?

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2238

 

The summary is that there are two major problems with the film, which some people hold both and others hold only the one.

 

A) it has not got enough of the source material, ie it's only about 6.66% Hellblazer.

 

B) it is not very good / it is not good enough / it is a pile of crap

 

See? Even part B has split opinion.

Even those of us who lean towards A and B have been positive about the positives, but other than James I, none of us are inclined to repeat ourselves again this long after the fact.

 

You veer towards discounting other people's opinions here because they happen to agree with the majority here. Strangely enough, no-one has tried to similarly devalue the opinion of anyone who (honestly) likes the movie. You correctly refer to the fact that we aren't very many even in the context of Hellblazer readers, so it should not be surprising that a small group of friends has shared opinions. Ask the Pro-Constanteeny people how they overcame the lack of love for That Awful Film. Hagren's already spoken up, and there's a bunch of Keanu fans around the internet who have find memories of their time here.

 

Anyway, don't let your welcome here be defined by this - we'll have forgotten the (lack of)bastard film in a year.

 

A couple of other points your raise - more people saw the film because much more was spent on advertising and because Keanu has a fan base. But most people spent less than £10 on one occasion for it, whereas we spend more than twice that every year.

 

As for your repeated proclamation ( and Mojo's question) about falling sales:

I've answered this in detail somewhere, and US comic shop sales for Hellblazer have dropped in line with the middle range of the direct market chart. At the same time the top twenty or so have soared ridiculously as the market congeals around its core readers. So a few non-superhero titles flourish, but others lose sales in favour of the sure-fire sales. Don't be fooled into thinking these titles sell because Bendis or Millar or whoever are "good". I'd rather Hellblazer takes chances with its writers.

 

There's been a 4000 (20%) drop in Hellblazer's US direct market sales since Mike Carey took over, but that period has coincided (at last) with the release of trade paperback collections - sadly they are still woefully behind schedule, something which could have been rectified before the film. Just under 4000 of these are bought by comics retailers in the first month of release - significantly more go to non direct market shops. That's a factor in all of the Vertigo titles being allowed lower cut off point - the major factor is that they want to publish something different to the mainstream.

 

As for the film boosting sales - no.

Latest numbers are about the same as this time last year, at least up until September when #200 saw an extra 1600 sold (plus 1300 the following month, which Hellblazer never does).

The release of the film in the US saw an extra 1000 copies going to the comic shops, and the publication of three "graphic novels" for the non-specialist market. One of those was a crap collection, all but ignored by the direct market. One was okay but really didn't address the missing issues. And the final one was "All His Engines" HARDCOVER which has outsold all recent Hellblazer TPBs (and one critic said it is "as good as Watchmen" or something). DC dropped the ball on the TPBs and by allowing Mike to write a great big long continuity arc at this time - WITHOUT publishing the collections at a rapid rate.

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And US sales for Hellblazer have dropped around 15,000 (50%) in the ten years since issue 96, but less than 2,000 (net) since the end of Paul Jenkins run (with a plateau for Ellis / Azzarello of between 18,000 and 20,000).

 

It's hard to find a comparable title during that time, but Flash has gone from 56,000 to 50,000 since 1995, Wonder Woman from 73,000 to 38,000 and Bart Simpson's Treehouse of Horror from 33,000 to 13,000.

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just to the B) point:

if you read back on the thread you suggested for jamesb (seen constantine? blah blah) many people said its an okay film but bad adaptation, an also not small group said its rubbish in both accounts and there are some true constantine haters and some true constantine "lovers" like me (altough i know its not perfect and has except maybe on the visuals (for what imho it deserves an oscar) superior counterparts and is of course a poor adaptation but imho not a bad interpretation, and it also hasnt got the value of films like requiem for a dream or oldboy etc, but does good what it could do out of what it had).

so what i wanted to point out is, that if im reading the comments out of line of the thread you and i mentioned now, it seems that except some bystanders the film is hated as adaptation and as itself, and if someone speaks about it, like i said, there is almost always some negative word suffixed or prefixed, as if the writer would be in agony or fury or sadness.

but if you go to the thread what were talking bout now since mentioning, like i did back then frequently after watching it, it doesnt seem like this, it tends more to the okay film, poor adaptation side, and thats what i want to say because it doesnt seem so, and i dont think thats reasonable or fair (like it would be a requirement to be an hb fan or an sth (forum member or at least a big plus in emphaty ;) or a habit/tradition/custom :biggrin:).

and yes, all the films chris and others mentioned were better adaptations like constantine, but for me it was painful to watch daredevil for instance, altough i dont like x-men, hulk and so on also really much. and thats not because i dont like classic comicfilms, because spiderman is outstanding, and batman begins, altough more on the realistic side, likewise.

and sin city may be the best adaptation on the planet, but i needed a long time to tend to liking it, because its very "old school".

so the second point i wanted to add is that good adaptation dont means good film and reverse, and thats something that doesnt seem so natural, because fans want everything crammed into the film, but that musnt be functionating or be supported.

and altough the most of you say its not because of the black hair and american nationality alone, a smoking rat in a trenchcoat on qsoors site has two flames in the close to jc-factor, where the film has one, and thats not the only example (the shirley novel has also two, im really sad i didnt read it yet, and thats also a thing i wanted to say: without the film there wouldnt be a novel series of the comic wrote by shirley and illustrated by bradstreet, that is also a huge thing isnt it (or am i wrong?)? btw, ive seen the vendetta novel today at my local comic shop in vienna, i check it out soon how close it is to the graphic novel because it says its based on the wachowsky script. and btw gengris, i also to started to begin reeves only with what had done in constantine.). but again, i also quite understand all that if it stays in a bearable amount blah blah

(altough if i dislike something, i dont stick "shyte" "terrible" "awful" etc next to the things title, because of respect. but if I speak a bout a film what wasnt so good imho, but i say it wasnt bad either (so i dont say anything really ofending just a neutral op of pros and contras) i get spanked :))

phew...

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kinky btw, you new avatar, do you know or even played the game linked to it? its superb until the bit dull end, i really recommend it if you like to play pc games :)

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I couldn't be bothered reading everything inbetween, but yes - I do think the Keanu fans were very nice people.

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Thats good then. Perhaps it doesnt come across like that, when the movie is being bashed quite so hard.

Heh heh heh, and I didn't even post to this thread. Discuss the merits of the film all you like--there's even a forum for it. However, be aware that there are those of us who believe that the Constantine film didn't even stand on its own internal logic, let alone anything resembling Hellblazer's cosmology, and don't mind saying so.

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Having scanned through some of the comments, its obvious that my opinion on the movie is very different from those that post here, as I can seperate the movie from the comic. Despite the opinions, of how the movie is rated, its always tied to the fact that dissapointment seems to permiate through, basd on the poor adapation.

 

Thats not something I can disagree with, but I supposse I do seperate both mediums.

 

I am a bit surprised that the figures were not boosted at all by the movie.

 

I say this as I actually know of someone who has come to the comic, and of others, including on this forum, whonhave come to the comic becuase of the movie, so if there were no real sales impact, thats not so good.

 

Either the new readers replaced old, or there was just NO IMpact whatsoever, from the movie. Which would throw one of the main reasons I dont slate it out of hand, which would not be so good.

 

'You veer towards discounting other people's opinions here because they happen to agree with the majority here.'

 

Everyones opinion is valid, I think, and I am not sorry if I think that someone invoking a 'group' opinion, is not actually making a fair argument, and I supposse I would veer towards discounting that as part of an argument or point in a discussion.

 

Agreeing with the majority is fine, but telling someone that not only is their point their opinion, but it is also validated because the majority agree with them, smacks of something different than the friendship that you speak of.

 

Of course, a bunch of budies would know what they think, on a subject, thats fair enough, and as I have said, there is a difference between invoking the majority and actually quoting what one percieves.

 

Chances with their writers, is something DC seem to be good at right now, I think, so your wish no doubt will bear through. I actually think Bendis is a good writer, like ennis is or Moore, but time will tel.

 

Of course, I truly hope MIna comes up with the goods, it would be nice to be enticed back to the title.

 

jamesb

 

Jamesb

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Comic adaptation movies almost never have a positive effect on sales of the comic. Certainly not in sales of the monthly issues, that's for sure. The only recent movies I can think of that have improved comic sales have been Hellboy and Sin City - both of which were sufficiently close enough to the original comics to ensure that people who liked the movie would also enjoy the comics.

 

A 100% faithful Hellblazer movie wouldn't have made enough money to cover the $60 million production costs, but a 100% faithful Hellblazer movie wouldn't cost that much in the first place.

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The ones to blame:

 

Scaring half of the book's readership: Azzarello(he did the same to both Batman & Superman). Rating:*******

 

Screwing with movie goers head with such shit about John buying his way to Heaven: most of the WB execs,Akiva Goldsman(his oscar don't mean shit to me,he helped ruin Batman and yet he's still on the WB payroll),the screenwriters(downgraded John from a magician to a friggin' exorcist),Francis Lawrence(skimmed through the pages of 'Dangerous Habits' like a fucking retard)

Rating:**********

 

 

In the end I fear it would be the same for V for Vendetta and (if out of development but doubt it) Swamp Thing & Preacher,etc.

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No. You're right. I won't waste my time illustrating how - despite the similarities - there's a whole range of opinion here about the quality of the film.

 

And do you know what? I needn't even have bothered looking elsewhere for evidence, because on the two pages of this thread before JamesB shoved us all into the Hivemind category, five people expressed their own opinion, one was GenGris who said that James summed up the general feeling and then proceeded to disagree with some of his points ("I like it") and another was Hagren who loves the film like a long lost brother. Josh used the "we" word later.

 

And yet, JB, you seem to focus importance on this alleged seeking of other people's opinions to validate our own. I put it to you that in fact you are seeking to validate your own as special by lumping all the other points in as one.

 

Despite the opinions, of how the movie is rated, its always tied to the fact that dissapointment seems to permiate through, basd on the poor adapation.

 

Everyones opinion is valid, I think, and I am not sorry if I think that someone invoking a 'group' opinion, is not actually making a fair argument, and I supposse I would veer towards discounting that as part of an argument or point in a discussion.

 

Well. Why did you invoke the group opinion ?

Or at least why did you leap on that small aspect of what one poster said ?

So you could veer towards discounting it ?

 

Please feel free to argue some of the points made against the film rather than "it made money" or what amounts to "you're all ganging up against me because I have special comprehension skills".

 

Because it is not your fondness for the film that is starting get annoying (ask the three of "us" who have been positive about the film in this thread) it is your attempt to ignore the facts that most of the reviews of the film were positive where they could be. Even Tom's.

Hey look, Hagren does that even in a second language (although missing a fair bit of irony in the translation).

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Having scanned through some of the comments, its obvious that my opinion on the movie is very different from those that post here, as I can seperate the movie from the comic.

 

Your powers and strange and frightening to us. Quickly! Let us flee to our caves where we shall fling our poo and scream in furious confusion at fire!

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:lol:

 

Firstly, a lot of the discussion in this thread seemed to revolve around, "Constantine can't really be that bad of an adaptation of the comic!", to which we reply, hell yeah, this movie sucks ass as an adaptation of "Hellblazer".

 

Now, many of us did seperate the movie from the comic. This is much more divided as some people actually like the movie on its own, while others of us still think it's crap even if it was called "Hellwaker" and starred some guy named "Pat Simmonds".

While even more others of us decided that it's ok if you're looking for a good action movie with occult overtones, but is hardly an excellent movie plot, dialogue, and character-wise (regardless of it was based on a comic, a novel, a video game, a late night drunken reverie by the writer, or what have you).

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Having scanned through some of the comments, its obvious that my opinion on the movie is very different from those that post here, as I can seperate the movie from the comic.

 

Your powers and strange and frightening to us. Quickly! Let us flee to our caves where we shall fling our poo and scream in furious confusion at fire!

 

I do that anyway.

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Having scanned through some of the comments, its obvious that my opinion on the movie is very different from those that post here, as I can seperate the movie from the comic. Despite the opinions, of how the movie is rated, its always tied to the fact that dissapointment seems to permiate through, basd on the poor adapation.

 

Let's see now. Here's a sample of reviews from some of the more regular posters on this board...

 

Selkie:

Looks like I'm going to be one of the lone dissenters: I liked it. I didn't love it, and it's not much of a Hellblazer film, but an an occult noir it's not bad. Well, it's not bad for the first 2/3. Once the holy shotgun heralds the beginning of the action portion, all bets are off.

 

Prudence:

If I had never read Hellblazer, I would have been impressed. Selkie sums it up rather well in her review. Great SXF, mostly strong characters, fantastic sets. (My favorite touch was the shelf of wind-up monkeys behind The Chair.)

 

Having 15+ (I refuse to count!) years invested in following, or rather trodding alongside, John Constantine, I was horribly disappointed.

 

Shawn:

OK I saw it. My girlfriend who knows nothing of Hellblazer enjoyed it.

 

As a movie it is not bad. As an adaptation it is horrible.

 

Balthazar:

For some reason, I knew I'd be one of the only people who enjoyed almost everything of the film. I know that you might be thinking that of course I'd enjoy it, I'm a teen who basicly jumped on the bandwagon or whatever. But I don't care, I thought the movie was really good.

 

Andy:

I attended a Saturday afternoon showing of the film with fellow forum member JUDE, who is a lovely person. To be brief, I liked more of it than I disliked. It was not the perfect Hellblazer film I had in my head, but as a big budget Worldwide major film it could have been much worse.

 

John McMahon:

That was disappointing - overlong and terribly boring in parts.

 

Started off strong but faded out less than a half-hour in.

 

5/10.

 

J.White:

On a scale of 1:10 for a Hellblazer adaption...

 

SURVEY SAYS: 2/10 - The only thing that kept this movie from making me completly forget about the comic was the fact that there were scenes taken specifically from Danergous Habits

 

As a movie itself...

 

SURVEY SAYS: 6/10

 

Even if I manage to get wasted and pretend this has nothing to do with bring Hellblazer to the big screen in the worst way, I still see so many problems with the plot itself.

 

John Waterman:

I saw Constantine on Saturday with my best friend in New Orleans. We both dig Hellblazer, and over a few rounds at O'Flaherty's afterwards, decided...it really wasn't that bad.

 

Qusoor:

I think my wife summed it best when she said "It's a bunch of ideas they just nailed together." The emblem of this film should be the soldier demon--kinda neat looking, but no brains whatsoever. Loads of special effects, and very little to hold them together. Homages were rampant: Dogma, The Exorcist, The Prophecy, Matrix. There's far more of these films involved than there is any Hellblazer.

 

Spiderlegs:

I was not impressed. And I will go you one further and question the credibility of any of these "so called" HELLBLAZER fans who claim to like the film. I put it to them that they, too, are not really familiar with the source material the way that the film makers SHOULD have been. And it should have been conveyed through the film, not used as a reason to get all defensive and claim the "comic geekstains hate the film because British John with a pint became Yankee John with a Pepsi." They missed that and so many other points in the process of making this film.

 

It should have been better. It should have at least tried to meet the comic fans half-way, or at least made some sort of effort to throw us a bone. This is a movie for people who really think reading comics is just for geeks, so the comic aspect should be completely disregarded, according to WB dogmatic film methodology...

 

Bilirubin:

Just got back from the flick. My review, in summary: surprisingly didn't suck.

 

That is, once you divorced yourself from the expectation that it would be John Constantine you were watching.

 

Wolfram:

Overall, I liked it enough (mostly, thanks to Tilda) to watch it again. There will, however, be much fast forwarding.

 

6/10.

 

Kris:

The film's left me cold a bit, i can't say its either good or bad but its just not worth much comment, its a movie thats okay to watch once but nothing to write home about or go screaming from the rafters about, it is at best an average movie thats probably worth a viewing on a rainy day.

 

Myself:

Well now, I just saw it yesterday. I tried my damndest to NOT view it as a "Hellblazer" movie, but give it a chance as a movie on its own merits. I was partially successful. Overall rating first: I'll give it a 6 out of 10 (as movie). I've seen heaps worse, adn also lots better. As adaptation it's lower on the scale.

 

The main problem with the film is the disjointed nature of the script. I really felt that this was written by several different "voices", adn the film suffered for it. The result was several OK scenes and a few very good scenes strung together in a mediocre way. It's like they couldn't really decide if they wanted an "occult murder mystery", an "action fest" or a "character study", so they did a little of it all, and ended up with less of each.

---

 

I really cant be bothered to quote any more now. I think I have made my point emphatically. Jamesb, I'm afraid your post is one of the clearest examples of observer bias I've seen in quite a time. The attitude you describe CLEARLY doesn't exist among the posters here. It is something you have a preconception about. You should understand that judging people's opinions based on your preconceptions of them, and not on what they actually say or write, gets people a bit frustrated at best, angry at worst.

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Hagren who loves the film like a long lost brother

 

(ask the three of "us" who have been positive about the film in this thread)

 

Hey look, Hagren does that even in a second language (although missing a fair bit of irony in the translation).

 

ok, what do these things mean :biggrin:

 

oh and jamesb, if your ever angry or something bout what youre reading, and you want to express it in writing, dont do it, because "violence" (;)) creates counter-violence :)

go to the tread adrian and i mentioned and red quoted now, it really calms you down as i said- theres a quite other picture of the ops of the film like after and before it imho.

 

*insert calm and witty quote here*

 

(you know what i dont understand?

that on a frequently visited hungarian pc-magazine forum, thread: films, almost everyone liked the flick (there was one who really didnt like it from at least 50 people). and the pallette of types was high: star wars fans, comicfans, horrorfans, filmfans in general, burton fans, kubrick fans, lynch fans, lotr fans, actionfilm fans, christians, i like everything types etc etc etc. there was a show on hungarian tv where they spoke about the psychological and religionous aspects of the film. many religious or "smart" people (like on of my biggest friends, who is the smartest guy i know (what makes him unbearable after spending two days thoroughly with him :biggrin:)) retrieved a message from the film, which they highly liked. with that i dont want to say that you guys are stupid or dont know movies, but why is that like this? i really dont get it. germans and austrians also tend to like it, but there are also some "i hate keanu the film is dumb unoriginal bad etc" types like on imdb)

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Let's see now. Here's a sample of reviews from some of the more regular posters on this board...

 

Shit, I'm the only one who realises how ordinary the film is !

Well, me and Keanu.

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Yes, and all of the Keanu fans who turned up (and buggered off after the movie came out) were lovely people.

 

I stuck around!!!

 

 

...and I still pass by from time to time to see what's going on.

 

I went looking to buy issue 213 recently, as I thought it would be nice to read a standalone issue and the reviews here were good. When I got to the comic book shop I forgot what issue I was looking for and bought number 212 by mistake.

 

A mistake, I think.

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...yes. Shame, really - #212 was neither an especially great issue, nor remotely stand-alone. Sorry.

 

Good to see you still sticking around, though.

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Comic adaptation movies almost never have a positive effect on sales of the comic. Certainly not in sales of the monthly issues, that's for sure. The only recent movies I can think of that have improved comic sales have been Hellboy and Sin City - both of which were sufficiently close enough to the original comics to ensure that people who liked the movie would also enjoy the comics.

 

A 100% faithful Hellblazer movie wouldn't have made enough money to cover the $60 million production costs, but a 100% faithful Hellblazer movie wouldn't cost that much in the first place.

 

Thats true.

 

as I said, I rate band of Brothers very highly, and wish that sort of job could have been done on hellblazer, which I am sure would have cost a lot more and ben more acceptable.

 

jamesb

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Okay surely it is evident that as an adaptation it's well fucking futile!

 

Now the remaining argument (remaining why?), is that in it's own right the film is not so bad.

 

Fine, okay.

Now look Cinema is my ultimate passion.

I got back into comics, only because i was storyboarding and scriptwriting for rich talentless film students.

 

Buy the powers of Chris Marker, Robert Bresson, Sergei Paradjenov, Yasujiro Ozu, Mizuguchi, Andrei Tarkovsky, Jean Renoir, Terence Malick, Michael Powell, Alain Resnais, Luis Bunuel, Werner Wassbinder, Ingmar Bergman, Sergei Eisenstein and possibly Akira Kurosawa (love him, but lets face it, it's a tough crowd already- same for Samuel Fuller and Bloody Sam peckinpah)...People who have enrichened my world view- people with something to say...

 

Anyway by the power of the true fucking masters of Cinema i smite that ultimately flawed and hollow "film" once and for all.

(any spare smite goes to Tears in the rain and Warner Brothers in general)

 

 

Yes there is subjectivity and taste- but to merely rely upon that is as extreme as saying that everything is objective.

 

There is a semi universal "quality" system at work, even within nature.

Something that is outside of oneself.

 

Furthermore one should try to seperate what you like from what "actually" is.

 

Ie- I love John Carpenter films,i really do- but that doesnt immediately make them the "best films" ever made.

Infact overall they're exteremily bad.

But I can generally apply an internal objectivity (which isn't an oxymoron) and by inlarge differentiate quality from the"what I like" list.

 

The same goes for catergories of the "best", "greatest" and "favourite" being completely fucking different.

 

It is a poor film.

Evident in it's rythym, dialogue, overall acting and general having Nothing of consequence to say.

It may look good, but so does MTV.

Where is the film language in any of the mise en scene and compositions.

 

No.

Go collect stamps.

There are opinions and there are eduacated(for want of a better word) opinions.

 

 

:icon_mgun: :icon_2gun: :icon_shotgun: :icon_twosgun:

End the Constanteen posts-and let true cinema into your life

(and then become as cinematically burnt out as I am)

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End the Constanteen posts-and let true cinema into your life

(and then become as cinematically burnt out as I am)

i got totally into films but i still see constantine good, altough its sometimes too slow and a bit thin. but i have no problem with the acting or story or characters or dialogue, feeling (atmosphere) etc, and the set design, cgi, camera, colours, clothes, so in overall the look section is remarkable. theres also a bit to think in it and its quite cool.

but yeah, its a poor adaptation.

we shouldnt forget the genre thing, should we?

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