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JohnMcMahon

Lack of content on the Constantine site

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guest, if you don't think there's a difference between Constantine making a Holy Shotgun (and if you're telling the truth about reading the comics you should know that his having such a thing is COMPLETELY out of character - NOT an evolution of it but OUT of it) and showing something to Entice the imagination. The shotgun is just a crass way of making the adolescents in the audience sit up and feel testosterone-charged (something you seem to think we're going to do too). There's a difference between that and using clever visuals to get one's imagination going. a holy shotgun leaves NOTHING to the imagination. its stupid to the point of being self parodic. its a bloody monty python sketch taken Literally......have you heard of the holy hand grenade. That alone should prove to you how ridiculous the idea is. But then there's not much point arguing with you I suppose. I'll stop lecturing you when you stop lecturing us. Juvenile, but there it is. You seem to think in complete absolutes. I agree that those movies went all out when they needed to. But they never made imagination obsolete in the way a Holy Shotgun does. Its ludicrous. I say again, there is a different between 'the alien round the corner' and a holy fucking shotgun. The former left a LOT to the imagination. The latter leaves Nothing. It's beyond simple ridicule.

 

And by the way, I may even like the movie a little bit if its well done. I didnt say that I'd hate it. What I do unequivocally say is that its going to be a horrendous adaptation of Hellblazer. Absolutely none of the (mostly flawed/obtuse/outright wrong) statements you have made prove otherwise. So don't go on about how im going to eat my words. you know precisely jack about my tastes in movies. And don't bother saying that if I hate Constantine I automatically have terrible taste in films. That would be you exposing yourself to some ridicule. If JMac allows it. Which he should, if you end up telling me I have bad taste if i dont like Constantine.

 

About the Batman thing. Once again, you dont speak for me. If I was old enough to have had an opinion then, i know i wouldve loved the idea of casting Keaton. I like unorthodox (as opposed to mis-)casting. If they were making that film now and I heard that Keaton had been cast I'd be intrigued. I certainly wouldnt have taken part in any outcries.

 

You don't need to tell me about the power of the moving image. I've been a cinephile for years, I love the stuff. But don't tell me that the comics allude to his magical skills instead of exhibiting them in full force cos of the limitations of the medium. That simply isnt true. The magic is alluded to because thats how Constantine uses it. Rarely and in a non-ostentatious fashion for the most part.

 

 

However, some writers like Mike Carey like to show him use his magical skills in full force. This is something I forgot to mention in the last post. And in his run we've seen plenty of spectacular displays of magic. And its as impressive as the majority of cinematic magic I've seen and I've seen a lot of it. It just takes good art. And there are good artists around.

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Right, I had some time and I decided to clarify a few things about my responses for those of us that may take a while to catch up, but then I saw that James posted everything I was going to say just as I was writing my last post. Nice one.

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James always has the good lines in these kinds of arguments.....

 

"John does nothing in the rest of the series"?!

I'm wondering how much John did exactly during Jamie Delano's run?

And, personally, I feel that Mike Carey's run (the current issues), John does TOO much!

There's a balance over the whole series. If you want to see a main character fighting it out with super powered baddies every month, there are TONS of comics on the market to whet your appetite every week. "Hellblazer" is not meant to be that type of book. If you don't have the patience for the type of book H.B. is, there are plenty of alternatives.

 

"John's character never changes or evolves"?!

John's character does evolve and change, as much as any real person does. Personally, I don't many people who go through a life changing epiphany ever few weeks. Writing a character who changes his attitudes, etc. for the sake of change is shoddy writing.

The John that Carey is writing is very different than the John that Delano was writing or the Ennis was writing; and within Delano or Ennis' run, John began to change in natural ways.

 

"The best stuff all happened in the first few issues"?!

You mean the "best stuff" in the entire "Hellblazer" series??? Jamie Delano was just getting his feet wet. #3 was the first issue that you could see Delano actually growing comfortable with the character, but that was a satire issue. It wasn't until issue #12 that the series really kicks off, and it only got better throughout the rest of Delano's tenure (40 issues). That's my opinion!

Then, there were lots of other great moments throughout the rest of the series.

 

And, who's life isn't sorry and depressing?! Yours?! What makes your life so much better than 6 billion others?!?! WHOS life is so much better than 6 billion others?!

A multi-millionaires? I feel sorry for them.

A person living in Palestine fearing death ever day? I don't think they're too thrilled with their life.

A rock star or TV celeb? Most of them are so shallow and transparent that you can't even take them seriously. I don't care to hear about their lives.

A person working 8-10 hours, 6 days a week to feed their families and keep their home and car? That's MOST people. They're none too exciting, but they're human.

Humans make the best stories.

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Christian, those last two sentences are pure gold!

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Darn it, how will we ever address all of the errors raised in each post by our "Guest" from Warnker Bothers ?

 

Oh incidentally, I don't think he *does* represent WB.

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Tears raised the point before about there being too much sitting around and talking shop in the comic for a totally faithful cinema adaptation to work so I'm thinking that's a party line over there.

 

That our new anonymous friend brought it up makes me think he might have some connection to the flick. Wouldn't surprise me if it was Matador.

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Guest Guest
And, who's life isn't sorry and depressing?! Yours?! What makes your life so much better than 6 billion others?!?! WHOS life is so much better than 6 billion others?!

A multi-millionaires? I feel sorry for them.

A person living in Palestine fearing death ever day? I don't think they're too thrilled with their life.

A rock star or TV celeb? Most of them are so shallow and transparent that you can't even take them seriously. I don't care to hear about their lives.

A person working 8-10 hours, 6 days a week to feed their families and keep their home and car? That's MOST people.

 

Wow, you managed to insult and stereotype every nationality and income level in one breath. I have a feeling you don;t belong to any of those classifications because you're still in high school. Well, it may be suprising to know that there are many people actually very happy with their lives. There are even millionaires that are as deep as.. well as deep as you! It's such a cliche that those with money are clueless and miserable. Sure I was happy when I had nothing, looked down at all of those "rich idiots" that didn;t know what a pure soul really was. And then I got some luck behind my struggle and sudden found myself with shit loads of the evil green stuff. Believe me, my life is a hell of a lot better with the cash to finally live with no boundaries. First thing I did was dump my fat ass wife, then moved to the beach, got a high rise condo, a decent drug source and a young perfect 10 stripper that breaths air just to please me.

 

So please don;t tell me happiness doesn;t exist.

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It is fairly clear whether it is Christian or "Guest" who types their posts "in one breath".

 

Still, this "guest" guy's dull now, can WB send us another one ?

 

And back on the subject of the official website, look at how Hellboy generated support by engaging fans of the series and getting others interested.

And the Matrix had similar advance promotion.

 

What a shame that the disparaging remarks of a dozen people is all the internet has to show for Constanteen.

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And isn't that what good writers do - expand on the original ideas within the limitations of the media while exploring some of their own wishes, fears and beliefs  Isn;t the definition of a HACK one who follows the orders of his peers to the T, never  having the balls to give them something new - something unique - something surprising even to them?

 

Uh no, Matadoor, a hack is someone who works for any boss, no matter how crass, and writes whatever his boss wants, no matter how hackneyed (which may be where the work hack comes from).

 

I guess my definition of a  proper fan is one who understands the nature of creativity and how it is forced to change from one media to another.    They are intelligent enough to know that all public creative works are locked in a business world and when something even remotely unique manages to crawl to the surface, they are smart enough to embrace the effort.

 

We must be proper fans by your definition, then, since we can clearly see that there is nothing "even remotely unique" about this film.

 

To wish for the passionate efforts of any human to crash and burn is counterproductive to the entire creative world.

 

What's at all wrong with wishing ill on some producer's passionate effort to make a lot of money by bastardizing a good story?

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Way back when, I think the plan was for me to work a little closer with the WB people so they could direct online folks over this way rather than to their official site.

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Way back when, I think the plan was for me to work a little closer with the WB people so they could direct online folks over this way rather than to their official site.

 

Their plan or yours, and is it still in play?

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It's going to be so much fun watching this site get overrun by new fans turned on by this character once the film comes out.  So many sleepless nights by those here trying to convince the newbies how stupid they all are for loving this terribly inacurate movie.  I can guarentee you it will happen.

 

And it'll be fine when they do. They'll run into our many pages of already-written criticisms of the movie. It should be a lot of fun. 8-)

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I mention that Micheal Keaton was the best batman - you ask yeah, so?

Yeah, so what? Batman is a superhero title. What does it have to do with Hellblazer?

 

 

What you fail to realize is that many of those who jump into reading the Constantine "novels" discover that in the later issues John essentially does nothing and they get bored.

What "later issues" are you talking about?

 

 

There is no evolving of the character or the mythology surrounding him.

No evolution of the character in 16 years of writing and 5 writers doing major stints on the book? What an "interesting" perspective. :wacko:

 

 

He just mopes and gets the shit beat out of him and feels sorry for those he's gotten killed.

Oh, is that what happens between him and the devil during Dangerous Habits? (That isn't a rhetorical question, I'd like to see your answer.)

 

 

All of his best stuff was over in the first few issues.

Seriously, only 3-4 good issues, and then its all downhill for the remaining 197-198? (You must have some serious misconceptions about the comic industry if you think this is possible.)

 

 

Afterwhich the writers - note, the writers -- decided to force him to live in the past and cling to the pain - just like those here that hate to see any change.  It may be why some love him the way he is because he is a direct reflection of their own sorry inactive lives.

In real life, people frequently feel sorry for what they've done. That is often a sign of human decency. (Not that you'd know about that from working in the movie industry.)

 

Most action films require little or no reflection or circumspection from their characters, except as a negative activity that the hero has to "get over" in order to murder the number of people required by the producers. Not surprisingly, few action movies are known for their great writing.

 

 

But in real life people sometimes do change - they evolve and it's that evolution, even if it's being forced to talk to God,  that makes them worth watching. 

 

Taking one point as an example:  The Holy Shotgun which has revieved so many threads on its own. --

 

John is dying, about to take his last breaths and he's gotten so pissed off at taking it up the ass from BOTH SIDES that he loses it and decides to take out as many fuckers as he can.  So he jury rigs a piece of shit looking weapon from religious and not so religious artifacts - so fucking what?  Trust me, if the filmmakers hadn;t done it, the writers of the comic eventually would have.  And you may not admit it here but you'd all sit up and say - yes, about bloody time, John!

So a guy who's taking his last breaths decides to spend a few of his precious last moments to build a shotgun and "take as many of them with me as I can"? Wow, I guess that's why they don't leave shotgun parts lying around in cancer wards! :laugh: Seriously, that is one of the most inane things I've ever read. The movie will be a ludicrous piece of shit at least to the degree that it faithfully reflects what you just wrote.

 

 

It's the same with John's use at magic - hinted at  through out the comics - but we only see him do one tiny thing in twenty nine issues.  It's all eluded to as in -- off camera, wink wink.

29 is a rather precise number. Which issues exactly are you talking about?

 

 

And yet he does travel in those worlds.  So it is not a stretch at all to see how he does get his info - how he does travel to hell (as in the comic), how his magic is used instead of just hinted at.

John's magic is shown, not just hinted at in the book. I'm wondering what you read when you thought you were reading Hellblazer.

 

 

So the filmmakers expand on that idea and without using the cliche pentegrams or candles or any of that bullshit, they invent ew things - like the use of water as a media that John uses to cross over.  Some have balked at the scene they've heard of John sticking his shoes in a bucket of water but trust me - it fucking works and it's within his character and the audience will abosultyely love it and love him because it's surprising and allows them into John's world, no matter how bizarre.  That idea is totally within the tone that has been set forth in the comic and HINTED at but never shown.

What comic, Loony Tunes? This going to hell in a bucket thing is just ridiculous. :lol:

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The problem is because these ideas were not YET shown in the comic

And I won't hold my breath for them to appear in the regular title. Lets just say there'll be fun times at Vertigo figuring what to do with such brilliance when it comes time to do the movie adaptation. :happy:

 

Even John's past and how he got his abilities is shown in the film.  The comic only eluded to it, the film visualizes it and invents what was missing and does it in harmony of the tone already established in the comics.

It's been stated clearly in the comic, and not just in early issues. I knew it during Jenkin's run. (Do you know what that was?)

 

There are many ideas in the film that had they first been seen in the comics would be ideas many here would have embraced because they further the mystery and depth of a character you've grown to love.

Oh yeah, the holy shotgun adds mystery and depth to John Constantine. :rolleyes:

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"Guest", you seriously misread Christian's post. He was saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you accused him of. He was saying that it's exactly the kind of normal life normal people lead that gives birth to the greatest stories. So it was not an elitist dig at the "sad lives of normal people", but rather saying that that's what's really important!

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Way back when, I think the plan was for me to work a little closer with the WB people so they could direct online folks over this way rather than to their official site.

 

Their plan or yours, and is it still in play?

 

Theirs and...um...I don't think so.

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Watch it, you;re showing your true geek nature.  You get the minute details so accurate and yet seem to be blind to the overall ideas.  I mention that Micheal Keaton was the best batman - you ask yeah, so?  How soon they forget the lessons from the past.  What you fail to realize is that many of those who jump into reading the Constantine "novels" discover that in the later issues John essentially does nothing and they get bored.  There is no evolving of the character or the mythology surrounding him.  He just mopes and gets the shit beat out of him and feels sorry for those he's gotten killed.  All of his best stuff was over in the first few issues.  Afterwhich the writers - note, the writers -- decided to force him to live in the past and cling to the pain - just like those here that hate to see any change.  It may be why some love him the way he is because he is a direct reflection of their own sorry inactive lives.  But in real life people sometimes do change - they evolve and it's that evolution, even if it's being forced to talk to God,  that makes them worth watching.

 

"The Devil is in the details", as you may have heard. Yes, I like the details, such as what an apostrophe is, as opposed to a semicolon. Sam Rami is a geek, but that doesn't stop him from making wonderful and profitable films. And have you seen Peter Jackson's first film? Geeky as they come, but he's currently very hot. I find it interesting that two of the hottest directors at the moment come from outside the Hollywood system.

 

I expect the people who get bored with Constantine doing "nothing", because we both know it's very easy to get a comic to go two hundred issues when nothing is happening, are the same ones who likes the The Lord of the Rings movies, but couldn't get through the books. If the Hellblazer comic and a head collide, and a hollow sound is heard, is it necessarily the fault of the comic? Interestingly, each and every one of Hellblazer's writers was up for an Eisner award in 2003. By your logic, all those talented people have used their tenure on Hellblazer to soak up some of Vertigo's copious cash, doing nothing for three or four years.

 

Here's another boring example. Do you understand the difference between Achillies and Odysseus? (Yes they're both from the Troy film) They are two very important heroes, who have very different ways of looking at conflict. Achillies is an ass-kicker. He goes forth and he thrashes his enemies. Odysseus is a strategist. He looks at the situation and thinks about it. Both types of heroes have their place, and each can have an interesting story. But mixing the two up is untrue to their natures, and damage their story. It is not in Achillies to have come up with the Trojan Horse. It is not in Constantine's nature to come up with the standard Hollywood "Gonna get my Shotgun" moment, because when he is pushed, he gets smarter and nastier, not desperate. The presence of the Holy Shotgun is a statement that they have taken away what is unique about Constantine--that he is smart--and they have replaced it with tricial dullness.

 

Since you've read (but apparently not retained) all 200 issues, you remember that Constantine has shot someone. And he hated it. And it wasn't any sort of high point of the series, or particularly exciting. Since you are so knowledgable about the series, could you refresh my failing memory on the circumstances around this act?

 

John is dying, about to take his last breaths and he's gotten so pissed off at taking it up the ass from BOTH SIDES that he loses it and decides to take out as many fuckers as he can.  So he jury rigs a piece of shit looking weapon from religious and not so religious artifacts - so fucking what?  Trust me, if the filmmakers hadn;t done it, the writers of the comic eventually would have.  And you may not admit it here but you'd all sit up and say - yes, about bloody time, John! 

 

Why yes, that's the standard Hollywood response. When you're pushed too far, you go get your shotgun. But John is not a standard Hollywood character. And let's not even discuss the ludicrousness of creating an impromptu shotgun. This process of giving people what they want is referred to as 'dumbing down.'

 

It's the same with John's use at magic - hinted at  through out the comics - but we only see him do one tiny thing in twenty nine issues. 

 

Ummm, yeah, I hate to show my geek nature and produce actual numbers, but there are two hundred and one issues of the main title. Not twenty-nine.

 

Further, could you comment the dismissal of Lisa Gerrard? She claims that she was removed from the project because her music was 'too intense'. Care to comment on this and how intensity could be bad for such an impressive and wonderful and, apparently intensely cool project as this?

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There's a bit too much embarrassing passive-aggressive tomfoolery going on in here, from John Goodrich's blowjob jibe to your own-oh-so-subtle "sure ye all only like Hellblazer cause you're a pack of sad geeks" effort.

My apologies, John, and to everyone on the board. Everyone has a snapping point, and Guest had reached mine. I'll do my best to make sure I do things like that very seldom.

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Guest Guest
I was going to delete the post above but I won't deprive everyone else of the chance to laugh at the delusional cretin who made it.

 

Finally, someone who actually has a sense of humor. Now back to my getto of WB strippers.

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Guest spiderlegs

Strippers? And you're grousing about on a message board..? :ohmy:

 

Priorities, mate!

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Guest Guest
Strippers? And you're grousing about on a message board..? :ohmy:

 

Priorities, mate!

 

I know I know.. but a man can only please so many deprived daddy seeking young nubiles.

 

Coming here recharges me.

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see - the chap WILL reply to an off-the cuff comment about hypothethical strippers, but WON'T reply to the numerous questions raised in our previous posts.

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Guest
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