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Guest The Wizard

First of the fallen

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Guest The Wizard

The first of the fallen, as it states in the character bios on Straight to Hell, is a different individual from Lucifer.

 

In the world of Sandman (which seems to be generally accepted to be the same world as Hellblazer), there are three lords of hell. ("Preludes and Nocturnes") One of which is Lucifer. (the names of the other two elude me).

 

In Hellblazer, there are indeed three lords of hell, but The First is in place of Lucifer. ("Dangerous Habits") The first is also referred to at various points as the devil/satan. (satan i had assumed being Lucifer's other name).

 

In fact, the only discernable difference that I can make out between them is that in Sandman, Lucifer quit and gave up hell, ("Season of mists", i think), while the first appears to still be around. So what's going on? Are they the same person, despite what the character bios say?

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The first of the fallen, as it states in the character bios on Straight to Hell, is a different individual from Lucifer.

 

In the world of Sandman (which seems to be generally accepted to be the same world as Hellblazer), there are three lords of hell. ("Preludes and Nocturnes")  One of which is Lucifer. (the names of the other two elude me).

 

In Hellblazer, there are indeed three lords of hell, but The First is in place of Lucifer. ("Dangerous Habits")  The first is also referred to at various points as the devil/satan. (satan i had assumed being Lucifer's other name).

 

In fact, the only discernable difference that I can make out between them is that in Sandman, Lucifer quit and gave up hell, ("Season of mists", i think), while the first appears to still be around.  So what's going on?  Are they the same person, despite what the character bios say?

The short version? No. First of the Fallen and Lucifer are two different entities. If you go to the "Thology of Hellblazer" thread the guys have done a pretty good job of trying to hash out the system (it gets complicated). In Hellblazer #83 First of the Fallen (who refers to himself as The Devil, slightly different than being Lucifer/Satan) gives his own personal backstory. You want it quoted?

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Guest The Wizard
The short version?  No.  First of the Fallen and Lucifer are two different entities.  If you go to the "Thology of Hellblazer" thread the guys have done a pretty good job of trying to hash out the system (it gets complicated). In Hellblazer #83 First of the Fallen (who refers to himself as The Devil, slightly different than being Lucifer/Satan) gives his own personal backstory.  You want it quoted?

 

Um, that would be cool if it's not too much trouble.

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Basically, Garth Ennis wasn't reading Sandman at the time, and decided that he wanted to work with The Devil also, and it conflicted with what had happened in Gaiman's book.

 

The First of the Fallen gpot retconted into something that was "already there" when Lucifer fell. Sort of primordeal demons, rather than fallen angels.

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In fact, when First of the fallen apears in Hellblazer, Lucifer had already leaved and Sandman had given the key of Hell to two angels.

 

If I'm not wrong in the story arc that we saw what happened with Ellie (the sucubus) the First say he is in charge of Hell because thoso two angels are to saint.... or something like this....

 

The way the call themselves is just a matter of perspective.... Satan, Devil, Fallen and all the other names can mean the same person or not.... you shouldn't use the name to know who the character is.

 

Hope it helps. :icon_rolleyes:

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The First of the Fallen is God's excised conscience, and sat at his side as he created the universe and the angels that would eventually rebel and be cast down.

 

Lucifer is an angel who was booted out of Heaven for getting uppity. The First watched him Fall.

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The First of the Fallen is God's excised conscience, and sat at his side as he created the universe and the angels that would eventually rebel and be cast down.

 

Lucifer is an angel who was booted out of Heaven for getting uppity. The First watched him Fall.

lol hooray, someone managed to say it succinctly! Three paragraphs is the shortest explination I could come up with and it was still confusing so I didn't post it... Proof once again that James is a god :)

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After reading enough Greek and Roman mythology to make my head spin I've come to the conclusion that gods who are part of a larger pantheon don't NEED consciences. It seems like they tend to have wives or pissed off relatives instead...

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"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

 

Was there a triumvirate of Hell in "Sandman"? It's been so long since I've read those issues, but it doesn't seem like Gaiman did use that idea.

Of course, if he did, it was because that was the official DC version of Hell. It was a continuity that Gaiman would've been forced to use since "Sandman" was originally a part of the DC Universe (yes, I realize the book was the entire time, but it became less tied to the DCU as the series went on).

Meaning=No Morpheus meets the JLA anymore!!!

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"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely!"

 

I believe Lord Acton's first clause is actually "Power tends to corrupt".

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Yeah, but it's been shortened in recent memory. Not that this has anything to do with the subject of this thread, but here is the quote.....

"Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end...liberty is the only object which benefits all alike, and provokes no sincere opposition...The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to to govern. Every class is unfit to govern...Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

But, if "Every class is unfit to govern", wouldn't this be the conclusive that "Power DOES corrupt"? I think that's why it was shortened.

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No, it was bastardized by mass stupidity and laziness. "Power corrupts" and "power tends to corrupt" don't mean the same thing.

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Yes, there was a truimverate in Sandman.

...because, in Neil Gaiman's words, the "powers that be" in DC SAID there had to be one. But it was clear that Lucifer really was da man, which is revealed clearly in "Seasons of mist". Gaiman states that Lucifer is second only to YHWH in power. But then Mike Carey complicates matters in "Lucifer" by introducing Lucifer's "brother", Michael, who is equal to Lucifer in power.

Also, an important difference between Lucifer and FoTF is that Lucifer really wasn't all that interested in ruling Hell, while FoTF was.

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Also, Lucifer would make by FAR the scariest guy to cross, since he actually gets you, if you step in his way. FoTF has a spectacular failure rate, while every single being who has opposed Lucifer has bitten the dust so far. FoTF might gloat and brag more, but his followthrough sucks.

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I'm with Tom again on this one. The First is a lousy character, and has been pretty much since his inception. He's got a certain dark presence in 'Dangerous Habits', but as soon as the character is fleshed out, he becomes, as yer man up there pointed out, a pantomime villain. Pissing champagne? Ripping out ribcages? Is this really the best Garth could come up with to make him scary?

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I dunno, having my ribcage torn out would shit me up a bit.

 

He works as an essentially dumb unstoppable force, as seen in Rake at the Gates of Hell.

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Yeah, that makes him an effective enough plot device. But he's not genuinely scary. I agree, I wouldn't really want my ribcage ripped out (although it would certainly make people remember me...), but then, I wouldn't want my intestines tied to a rocket ship and wrapped around the moon either. That doesn't mean Itchy and Scratchy keep me awake at night.

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I agree. I thought FOTF was the weakest thing about Ennis's run which I otherwise enjoyed immensely as I was a big fan of all the swearing, violence, depression, dialog, drinking etc on display :)

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Yep, I agree. I'd just tell him who I REALLY was, and he'd think I was trying to trick him, and he'd leave me alone! :lol:

 

The guy has become a joke....

"He works as an essentially dumb unstoppable force, "

Yes, the dumb guy who reads poetry and the unstoppable force who is always stopped. He's become a regular riddle inside an enigma.... :biggrin:

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