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lyra

Post a gay or lesbian comic book character

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Miracleman may be above petty morals but he wanted young marvelman.

See, I wasn't convinced of that at all. Seemed to me that he was being pushed into it by what's-her-name.

 

...and dammit, what was her name? It wasn't just Miraclewoman, was it? :blink:

I think you may be talking about Miracleman's daughter. But it was miraclewoman who convinces him to ask about how Miracleman feels about him.

You are totally right about him not taking advantage of y.m.m it was just a really honest moment.

 

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Are there any gay characters in Judge dredd's world?

The only one I can think of offhand is Armitage's sidekick Treasure Steel.

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There are scads of lesbian characters and a few gay male ones in Paige Braddock's Jane's World and Allison Bechdel's Dykes to Watch Out For, and there are many gay and bisexual men in Colleen Doran's A Distant Soil. And of course there's Katchoo, the now deceased D'arcy Parker and Casey in Terry Moore's Strangers in Paradise.

 

With the number of Gotham Central fans here, I'm surprised no one up to now has mentioned Rene Montoya, her lover (whose name escapes me) and the captian of the Major Crimes Unit.

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Hawk and Dove, man. Seriously. So gay.

 

That was one of the worst bits of The Dark Knight Strikes Again. Served no purpose except for Miller to essentially beat the reader over the head with really poor, "HAW-HAW!1!111 LOOK AT the FAGZ!!! THEY HAVE the BUTTSEXXX!11!!111"-type humor. There's a really uncomfortable underlying homophobic tone to that whole series, as well as much of Miller's later works.

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The ultimate version of Jarvis from the ultimates.... Now dead unfortunatley.

 

 

Ray Monde from the 3rd issue of hellblazer if no one has mentioned him.

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Phat and Vivisector from X-statix (X-force) are openly gay and not on that gay league website.

 

I really hated the Dark Knight strikes back for all the reasons you stated. It is just to easy to poke fun at Hawk and Dove in a juvenile way.

 

JArvis was gay really?

 

I wonder if Dr.STranges butler's is also.

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Phat and Vivisector from X-statix (X-force)  are openly gay and not on that gay league website.

 

I really hated the Dark Knight strikes back for all the reasons you stated. It is just to easy to poke fun at Hawk and Dove in a juvenile way.

 

JArvis was gay really?

 

I wonder if  Dr.STranges butler's is also.

 

Just to make sure your clear The ultimate jarvis which is tony starks butler from the ultimates...

Not the 636 jarvis butler to the avengers

Yeah he was and he creeped the hell outta tony but was a close freind and a bitch unfortunatley nstasha but a bullet in his head.

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Phat and Vivisector from X-statix (X-force)  are openly gay and not on that gay league website.

 

I really hated the Dark Knight strikes back for all the reasons you stated. It is just to easy to poke fun at Hawk and Dove in a juvenile way.

 

JArvis was gay really?

 

I wonder if  Dr.STranges butler's is also.

I don't think Wong is, but now you mention it, that Witches series had Jennifer Kale as a lesbian. I'm not sure if she was in anything else though (mind you, I don't know if she's appeared in anything else since a few issues of Ghost Rider in the late '90s.)

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That was one of the worst bits of The Dark Knight Strikes Again.  Served no purpose except for Miller to essentially beat the reader over the head with really poor, "HAW-HAW!1!111  LOOK AT the FAGZ!!!  THEY HAVE the BUTTSEXXX!11!!111"-type humor.  There's a really uncomfortable underlying homophobic tone to that whole series, as well as much of Miller's later works.

Never did read ...Strikes Again, actually. I've heard such mixed reports on it, I'm not too willing to shell out; coupled with a bad aftertaste, similar to what you're describing, that a lot of Miller's work leaves me with, I'm not sure I ever will get round to it.

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Never did read ...Strikes Again, actually. I've heard such mixed reports on it, I'm not too willing to shell out; coupled with a bad aftertaste, similar to what you're describing, that a lot of Miller's work leaves me with, I'm not sure I ever will get round to it.

 

 

You wouldn't like it. I think it's an underrated and misunderstood (albeit undeniably flawed) masterpiece, myself, but I'm absolutely certain that you'd hate it.

 

MojoPin - weren't you just defending Ennis in the Preacher thread? The homophobic subtext in a lot of his work is far more overt, consistent and troubling than in anything Miller's ever written, to my mind. How do you feel about that?

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You wouldn't like it. I think it's an underrated and misunderstood (albeit undeniably flawed) masterpiece, myself, but I'm absolutely certain that you'd hate it.

Question is, would I hate it enough to make it worthwhile reading it? :D

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Mojo defends what he enjoys and attacks what he doesn't enjoy!

 

I read "X-Statix" when it was coming out monthly, so I forget exactly, but Phat from X-Statix wasn't actually gay was he? I thought the joke was he was only acting gay to get media attention....although, maybe he was making that story up because he was embarrassed about his sexuality? I forget....

Vivisector was openly gay though.

 

Jennifer Kale surprised me. She was dating a man in Steve Gerber's "Legion of Night" mini-series.

Kale was introduced in Gerber's "Man Thing" and made a few appearances in his "Howard the Duck". She was a young girl in those series though.

That almost sounds like a Vertigo "we need a young woman who's Wiccan to be a lesbian" plot.

 

Wong is not gay either. He had a torrid love affair with a woman who died due to Dr. Strange in the late-1990s "Dr. Strange" series. J.M. DeMatteis wrote a wonderful story-line where Dr. Strange showed his humanity by helping Wong go to the afterlife in order to say good-bye to his lost love. It's more complex than that, you should read that story. It's the best Dr. Strange story I've ever read, and I've read 'em all!

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It was more of just a one time thing with Phat. The two of them (phat and Vivisector) are in the same bed watching the late night news in one scene (I'm unsure if this means their sleeping together or just platonic spending the night with your friend in the same bed.) Phat is a very confused lad.

 

Thanks for clearing up Wong. It is nice to know he has a back story.

 

Israel and Jesus from Love and rockets are bi-sexual.

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MojoPin - weren't you just defending Ennis in the Preacher thread? The homophobic subtext in a lot of his work is far more overt, consistent and troubling than in anything Miller's ever written, to my mind. How do you feel about that?

 

Well, for one, I wasn't defending Ennis, I was defending Preacher. Like I said, Ennis has his writing flaws, his simplistic and juvenile view of sexuality (homo or hetero) in general chief among them. But, in my opinion, he never had anything even remotely close as blatantly stupid, pointless and flat out ugly as the Hawk & Dove panel from DKSA. That is, however, my opinion. Preacher is overwhelming in its attempt to be "masculine"...but, for better or for worse, so is every pice of great action fiction, film, book, comic or television (see Sin City). And, unfortunately, anything that's not manly gets shoved aside and often treated as something to snicker at. It's almost natural in that genre...not saying it's right, but it's nothing surprising. Miller's little H&D "joke" in DKSA is even MORE random and unecessary. Add on the final battle with Batman belittling his enemy with seemingly feminine and homophobic insults, after which he is reuinted with his very juvenile female sidekick in what, to me, seemed blatantly sexualized and, well, it just felt uglier than it needed to have been.

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Mojo defends what he enjoys and attacks what he doesn't enjoy!

 

And...?

 

Seems to me that's what everyone does.

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Not Red....but he is like baby Jesus!

 

Personally, in a book like "Preacher", I found the homophobia to be self-mocking. It as if Ennis was saying, "Here's what your great American epics have to say about manliness! See how over-the-top and laughable it can seem?"

I would almost stick to this line, if not for Ennis' other homophobic jabs.

 

I've never read Dark Knight Strikes Again, so I can't comment on it. But, the reviews I've read state that it's some sort of farce. If this is true, wouldn't Miller be making an ironic statement with his homophobic references in that story?

Actually, I haven't read anything new by Miller, so I'm don't know, has Miller gotten progessively more homophobic in his other work, or was it insulated within that one comic book?

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Personally, in a book like "Preacher", I found the homophobia to be self-mocking. It as if Ennis was saying, "Here's what your great American epics have to say about manliness! See how over-the-top and laughable it can seem?"

I would almost stick to this line, if not for Ennis' other homophobic jabs.

 

That's the thing...like you say, because that humor spills over to his other titles, I don't think that's the case. And shit, you'll never convince me that Ennis doesn't believe all the gung-ho, testosterone-packed Americana he spouted in Preacher. But, that's just what the series is. It, and pretty much anything Ennis has written, exists in the world of movies like Die Hard. You know what you're getting going in, for better or for worse, and Preacher was all of that to the nth degree. It's supposed to be the ultimate western/action flick.

 

I've never read Dark Knight Strikes Again, so I can't comment on it. But, the reviews I've read state that it's some sort of farce. If this is true, wouldn't Miller be making an ironic statement with his homophobic references in that story?

Actually, I haven't read anything new by Miller, so I'm don't know, has Miller gotten progessively more homophobic in his other work, or was it insulated within that one comic book?

 

Some parts of it work brilliantly. It's obviously a farce...unfortunately, it's often a very hamfisted and obvious farce. At one point, for no reason at all, he portrays Hawk & Dove as a, for lack of a better term, duo of bitchy queens (I say that because that's really what it feels like Miller wants them to be seen). And it's just...there. Obviously, the superhero genre is one ripe for sexual parody and critique, but something about this little throwaway joke never sat right with me. The rest of Miller's work isn't necessarily homophobic as it is overbearingly masculine. And yes, I see the hypocrisy of saying that when I'm usually a fan of Ennis, but like I said, you know you're getting things along that line with Ennis going in. You know you're getting the amped up archetypes of Die Hard. Miller didn't always do that. The tone of DKSA comes out of nowhere, and for no real reason.

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"And yes, I see the hypocrisy of saying that when I'm usually a fan of Ennis, but like I said, you know you're getting things along that line with Ennis going in. You know you're getting the amped up archetypes of Die Hard. Miller didn't always do that. The tone of DKSA comes out of nowhere, and for no real reason."

 

I would say Miller has always liked big guns, extreme violence, and has a fetish for ninjas.

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Oh, very true. But at the same time, he's had very strong female characters (Elektra, Martha Washington) and zero of the veiled shots or attitude to homosexuals existing in Ennis' work, and many comics in general. Something seemed to happen as Sin City wore on...he seems more obsessed with the alpha, over-heterosexualized uber-male, and anything not along those lines is mocked or beat down or shunned or dominated.

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That's the thing - the Hawk and Dove joke in Dark Knight Strikes Again is a throwaway gag in a single panel. It's not very funny, and the book certainly wouldn't suffer if it was removed, but that's all it is - a one-off joke which misfires (the Robin stuff at the end of the book is similarly misguided, but again, you have to stretch a little to actually work that up into an accusation of homophobia - the way I read it, it was more about provoking a reaction from taking-things-too-seriously fanboys). Couple this with, say, 300 (probably Miller's ultimate testosterone-fuelled, ultra-macho adventure/heroism story, and it's an unashamedly homoerotic romp, revolving around characters whose society was not just comfortable with male-male sexual relationships, but actively lauded them), and it gets pretty difficult to sustain that particular argument. There are many, many thematic elements of Miller's work which leave him open to serious criticism (the extreme misogyny of Sin City, in particular, is hard to escape), but I don't think 'homophobia' is one which stands up to close scrutiny.

 

I do totally agree that the uber-masculine world of Sin City became increasingly over-done, wearisome and exclusive as the series wore on, though. I think it would take a near-pathologically generous interpretation of Miller's writing to argue otherwise.

 

Ennis' entire career, on the other hand (Preacher very much included), is filled with instances of gay characters being portrayed as twisted, perverted sadists, or pathetic girly-men, or degraded freaks, or just the punchlines to as many jokes as he can cram into an issue. It's possible to rationalise this away as just a juvenile sense of humour at work, but it would take some pretty strenuous mental gymnastics to dismiss it entirely. As Christian said, I could just about accept the constant, sustained belittling of every male homosexual character to appear in Preacher as being satirical in intent (albeit in an incredibly ham-fisted way), if it weren't for the fact that he's crammed exactly the same sort of 'jokes' into almost everything else he's ever written.

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Has anyone mentioned Top Ten? I've come to this late and that's my sole contribution.

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Jennifer Kale surprised me. She was dating a man in Steve Gerber's "Legion of Night" mini-series.

Kale was introduced in Gerber's "Man Thing" and made a few appearances in his "Howard the Duck". She was a young girl in those series though.

That almost sounds like a Vertigo "we need a young woman who's Wiccan to be a lesbian" plot.

I can't see how the plot required her to be a lesbian, though: it's only mentioned through Satanna taking the piss out of her about it.

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Mark, it just comes back to like I said...that's Ennis' work. You go in, you're getting action film archetypes cranked up to a ridiculous agree, that included. Does that make it "right?" No. But because that's the tone of the overwhelming bulk of his writings, it's something that's just there...the theme that stands out isn't just "gay bashing"...if it was ONLY that, it would seem far more glaring and malicious. Ennis seems to mock ANYTHING that isn't "manly" by his cliched action film mentality...gays, women, ultra-liberals/conservatives, the French. He lives and dies by the fictional "man's man" archetype. That's his tool, pardon the pun. Again, for me it's like watching the Die Hard films, or their ilk. I may not agree with certain sentiments, but I can be entertained by the overall nature of the stories...compound that with the fact that Ennis seems to take a perverse, mocking view of sexuality in general 99% of the time and very rarely does it come off as actually spiteful, to me. More like someone trying too hard to be "manly" than anything else.

 

And again, like you said, that's ALWAYS been Ennis. With Miller, his newfound "gay-mocking" seems MORE glaring to me because it wasn't there before. Ennis seems to be more catering to the "classic" action film archetype, whereas Miller pulls it out of nowhere, and it frustrates me. Is it an unfair expectation? Maybe...but he didn't do it before...why now?

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