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Gaiman on comic book movies

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There's a Sandman Presents graphic novel written by Mike Carey that's worth reading. Sandman Presents:The Furies

Ah, I'd forgotten that one: okay, I wouldn't forcefeed that to Berger, it's a very good comic.

 

"Dream Street" wasn't bad, and I really liked Darko Macan's "Corinthian:Death in Venice" one. "Dead Boy Detectives" surprised me, I didn't think I'd like it, but it was Brubaker writing it.

Those aren't collected in Trades though.

No, they're not (mind you, neither is that godawful Kiernan Bast thing), but the couple of godawful pseudo manga comics Jill Thompson did are still in print...

I just find it strange that Gaiman is throwing hissy fits about unacceptable scripots for a Sandman film but is willing to let DC persist in churning out this kind of shit. If he's willing to suffer crap like the Merv Pumpkinhead oneshot, then he obviously holds the Sandman in greater contempt than any film studio could ever manage to, and doesn't hyave a leg to stand on when he starts whining about that.

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Gaiman only allows the Endless to be used in special projects, and is especially protective of Dream.

Gaiman has never stated that his realm he created for the Sandman comic is off-limits.

It's mostly Morpheus that Gaiman is protective of, and understandably so.

 

I'm sure if Hollywood came to Gaiman and said, "Hey, can we make a Merv Pumpkinhead movie?" I'm sure Gaiman would say, "Have fun."

Merv Pumpkinhead certainly wasn't a character so close to Gaiman's heart that he could never see anyone else misusing the character. But, he does feel that way about Morpheus, and to a lesser extent, the Endless.

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Gaiman only allows the Endless to be used in special projects, and is especially protective of Dream.

Gaiman has never stated that his realm he created for the Sandman comic is off-limits.

It's mostly Morpheus that Gaiman is protective of, and understandably so.

 

I'm sure if Hollywood came to Gaiman and said, "Hey, can we make a Merv Pumpkinhead movie?" I'm sure Gaiman would say, "Have fun."

Merv Pumpkinhead certainly wasn't a character so close to Gaiman's heart that he could never see anyone else misusing the character. But, he does feel that way about Morpheus, and to a lesser extent, the Endless.

There is that, but I feel that both are part of the same patchwork myself.

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Yes, but as established in the past, your attitude towards Gaiman is not entirely without bias.

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I just find it strange that Gaiman is throwing hissy fits about unacceptable scripots for a Sandman film but is willing to let DC persist in churning out this kind of shit. If he's willing to suffer crap like the Merv Pumpkinhead oneshot, then he obviously holds the Sandman in greater contempt than any film studio could ever manage to, and doesn't hyave a leg to stand on when he starts whining about that.

 

Bollocks, that.

 

It's one thing for other people to do bad work spinning off from his ideas. It's a whole other thing to have your life's greatest achievement being represented to the public at large as something completely different from what it was. If you think that some harmless idiotic Merv GN that no one associated with Gaiman is on the same level as a major international release pitting action heroes Morpheus and The Corinthian against each other, then you exist on a very different plane of existence from mine.

 

It's hard enough getting the world at large to take good comics seriously and this would be set back further if the movie version of what is widely written about as one of the crowning achievements of the comics medium is a piece of garbage. It would reflect terribly on Gaiman, his reputation, his creation and on comics in general. People would go 'THIS shit is what journalists have been going on about as a comics masterpiece?'

 

It's like saying that some silly little Ozymandias spinoff written by - oh, I dunno, ME - is on the same level of atrocity as a 100 million dollar, widely promoted Watchmen movie where Rorschach wears a cape, flies, saves cats and raises an American flag on the moon. I'm sure Alan Moore would simply laugh at the first thing and expend some serious rage at the second thing.

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I just find it strange that Gaiman is throwing hissy fits about unacceptable scripots for a Sandman film but is willing to let DC persist in churning out this kind of shit. If he's willing to suffer crap like the Merv Pumpkinhead oneshot, then he obviously holds the Sandman in greater contempt than any film studio could ever manage to, and doesn't hyave a leg to stand on when he starts whining about that.

 

Bollocks, that.

 

It's one thing for other people to do bad work spinning off from his ideas. It's a whole other thing to have your life's greatest achievement being represented to the public at large as something completely different from what it was. If you think that some harmless idiotic Merv GN that no one associated with Gaiman is on the same level as a major international release pitting action heroes Morpheus and The Corinthian against each other, then you exist on a very different plane of existence from mine.

 

It's hard enough getting the world at large to take good comics seriously and this would be set back further if the movie version of what is widely written about as one of the crowning achievements of the comics medium is a piece of garbage. It would reflect terribly on Gaiman, his reputation, his creation and on comics in general. People would go 'THIS shit is what journalists have been going on about as a comics masterpiece?'

 

It's like saying that some silly little Ozymandias spinoff written by - oh, I dunno, ME - is on the same level of atrocity as a 100 million dollar, widely promoted Watchmen movie where Rorschach wears a cape, flies, saves cats and raises an American flag on the moon. I'm sure Alan Moore would simply laugh at the first thing and expend some serious rage at the second thing.

And there was me thinking that his gentleman's agreement with DC would allow him to veto godawful shit being spun off from the Sandman.

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Shocking confession time:

I've only read a couple issues of Sandman and I didn't like them.

However, that was over 10 years ago, before my taste in comic books matured.

I think I'm the only person on this forum who hasn't read Sandman.

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Shocking confession time:

I've only read a couple issues of Sandman and I didn't like them.

However, that was over 10 years ago, before my taste in comic books matured.

I think I'm the only person on this forum who hasn't read Sandman.

You're not missing much.

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And there was me thinking that his gentleman's agreement with DC would allow him to veto godawful shit being spun off from the Sandman.

 

Either you're being obtuse on purpose or you didnt read what I said and missed the point.

 

The point is not whether or not he has the power to veto every spinoff. The point is that some minor spinoff comic book does not affect or misrepresent his own body of work one bit. Their connection to him, his reputation and his creation is tenuous at best. The people who will read these spinoffs will be already established Sandman/comic book fans. They will dismiss them as crap and move on without their opinion of the source material changing one bit.

 

On the other hand, a movie adaptation is the direct representation of HIS OWN WORK. It is not a separate work using some of his characters. It is a film to be watched by millions of people around the world - most of whom have never read the comics - that will claim to be a representation of the original series. These people will, on the weakness of the film, dismiss Gaiman's work as crap and never even bother touching it. It will tarnish his reputation and that of the Sandman series. While the responsibility of any spinoffs is on the heads of their respective writers, a movie will always claim to represent him and his work. It's like I said with my Watchmen post. Some silly inconsequential spinoff is no skin off his back. A huge movie will haunt his original work for years if its bad enough, which some of the scripts most certainly were. And really, if you cannot fathom why a writer who spent a decade of his life creating a monumental epic would complain about it being represented to the wide world as a brainless action flick, I really dont know what to say.

 

Was Gaiman rude to you at a signing or what? Your random spurts of vitriol against him are really pretty baffling, their lack of foundation aside.

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Did Neil Gaiman steal your lunch money on the playground?

 

"And there was me thinking that his gentleman's agreement with DC would allow him to veto godawful shit being spun off from the Sandman."

 

Actually, I'm not sure Gaiman does have the right to veto any of his creations being spun off. I'm not positive, but I think I read that he only has control over the Endless, themselves.

I do remember that I read that Gaiman has stated that he introduced a lot of neat characters that he never had the time to use fully, and that if other writers want to play with those characters, he has no problem with it, because he was never able to give them the time they deserve.

A lot of Caitlin R. Kiernan's stories in The Dreaming may be awful, but she did more with a character like Lucien than Gaiman ever did. For better or worse, Lucien has become more of Kiernan's character than he was Neil's (outside of actual creation of said character).

I think it'd be pretty petty of Gaiman to hold on to every character he ever created, no matter how minor that character actually was in Sandman, and never allow anyone to ever touch them again.

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I think it'd be pretty petty of Gaiman to hold on to every character he ever created, no matter how minor that character actually was in Sandman, and never allow anyone to ever touch them again.

 

Given the way creator ownership of characters has traditionally been applied in comics (ie., loosely), and how many characters created by other writers Gaiman has used in his own comics work, I'd say it'd make him a total prick. Which is probably why he hasn't done it.

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Did Neil Gaiman steal your lunch money on the playground?

 

"And there was me thinking that his gentleman's agreement with DC would allow him to veto godawful shit being spun off from the Sandman."

 

Actually, I'm not sure Gaiman does have the right to veto any of his creations being spun off. I'm not positive, but I think I read that he only has control over the Endless, themselves.

I do remember that I read that Gaiman has stated that he introduced a lot of neat characters that he never had the time to use fully, and that if other writers want to play with those characters, he has no problem with it, because he was never able to give them the time they deserve.

A lot of Caitlin R. Kiernan's stories in The Dreaming may be awful, but she did more with a character like Lucien than Gaiman ever did. For better or worse, Lucien has become more of Kiernan's character than he was Neil's (outside of actual creation of said character).

I think it'd be pretty petty of Gaiman to hold on to every character he ever created, no matter how minor that character actually was in Sandman, and never allow anyone to ever touch them again.

I don't think gaiman created Lucien in the first place: he was a host character in an anthology comic, like Destiny, the three witches and Eve.

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SO.. aside from the Sandman Presents: The Furies

I need not try and find the other Sandman stuff?

 

I only have Gaiman's stuff

as I really like his creations

 

I hate to wander in a fray I am totally clueless about

But all I can say is - if I were Gaiman

I'd be more protective of that I spent more time on

than what I didnt -

so his stance on Dream and the Endless sound fine to me

 

Actually I dont get what you are on about, Dogpoet

It seems you are angry at him for letting others

do to his other creations things he wouldnt do

and at the same time angry at him for not letting others

do to the Endless things he wouldnt do

 

but hey, like i told people here, i just enjoy reading comics

and i do enjoy some of the things they do onscreen

not all of them, but some...

 

Tell me though

Has anybody else done things on the Corinthian

(a rather scary villain I like to dislike)?

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Yes Gen.

Corinthian was featured in a few issues of the Sandman spin-off series called "The Dreaming".

It started out as an anthology comic with different writers and artists telling stories about different characters from the Sandman comic book (other than the Endless).

Then Caitlin R. Kiernan took over as full time writer and the book vastly dropped in quality.

I really wouldn't bother worrying about the issues of "The Dreaming" featuring the Corinthian. They weren't that great.

 

BUT, there was a "Sandman Presents" mini-series written by Darko Macan called "The Corinthian: Death in Venice".

It was 3-issues, but it was never collected in Trade.

I really liked that story.

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Was Gaiman rude to you at a signing or what? Your random spurts of vitriol against him are really pretty baffling, their lack of foundation aside.

I don't have anything in particular against Gaiman, I just find the rather disproportionate degree of awe the Sandman is held in rather irritating.

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Was Gaiman rude to you at a signing or what? Your random spurts of vitriol against him are really pretty baffling, their lack of foundation aside.

I don't have anything in particular against Gaiman, I just find the rather disproportionate degree of awe the Sandman is held in rather irritating.

 

I cannot fathom how one can praise something as accomplished and groundbreaking as Sandman too much, but all right.

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The more I hear, the more I think I really need to get down to the library and pick up some Sandman trades....

 

Okay, I'm checking the San Francisco Public Library's collection and - how the hell many trades' worth of Sandman did Gaiman write??

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The Sandman series was 75 issues, 1 Annual, plus a few special short stories.

 

There was a graphic novel called "Sandman:The Dream Hunters".

 

Then he wrote a follow-up collection of short stories starring the Endless called "Sandman:Endless Nights".

 

And, for true completists, the story of Morpheus meeting the Golden Age Sandman is collected in the "Midnight Days" Trade, with Gaiman's other projects for Vertigo that hadn't already been collected.

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What about the Death trades?

I better go and count my Sandman...

maybe if I miss work tomorrow i'll have time

oh let me do it now.

 

I count 14 trades and Creatures of the Night

(Didnt have time to check the titles)

and then I found my other copy of Smoke and Mirrors

which means I can give one copy to a friend...

maybe as his unbirthday present.

 

That sounds complete, doesnt it?

I do have the Dream Hunters - the monk and the fox.

an elegant story. And yep, I got Midnite days

they have Hold me also in that volume

Hold me also appears in the HB trade that came with the movie

 

What's the annual Christian?

 

I'm afraid I'm one of those completist

when I can be - not always possible here

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I cannot fathom how one can praise something as accomplished and groundbreaking as Sandman too much, but all right.

 

Oh, I don't know...you've clearly got a vague idea of how to start. ;)

 

 

I love Sandman, but the awe-struck reverence in which it's held by a lot of comic fans does sometimes grate on me slightly. It's easily the best thing Gaiman's ever written, and it's a superb piece of work, but it's not quite the Holy Grail of mature comics which some people seem to want it to be.

 

Of course, there's a bit of a gulf between this slight scepticism and dogpoet's one-man crusade to SHOW GAIMAN UP AS THE NO-TALENT HYPOCRITE HE CLEARLY IS.

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I cannot fathom how one can praise something as accomplished and groundbreaking as Sandman too much, but all right.

 

Oh, I don't know...you've clearly got a vague idea of how to start. ;)

 

 

I love Sandman, but the awe-struck reverence in which it's held by a lot of comic fans does sometimes grate on me slightly. It's easily the best thing Gaiman's ever written, and it's a superb piece of work, but it's not quite the Holy Grail of mature comics which some people seem to want it to be.

 

Of course, there's a bit of a gulf between this slight scepticism and dogpoet's one-man crusade to SHOW GAIMAN UP AS THE NO-TALENT HYPOCRITE HE CLEARLY IS.

I never said Gaiman was a no talent hypocrite (I merely find it distasteful that he's willing to accept a big cheque for the film rights to something but isn't willing to let them get on with making the film of it they've paid him for), but he's definitely done better than the Sandman since. American Gods and Mr Punch both spring to mind for a start.

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Mr. Punch was either before or during The Sandman.

 

I wouldn't call American Gods better than The Sandman, although it's in the same catergory.

American Gods has gotten close to the same acclaim as The Sandman, there's just so much more competition when you move from the comics realm to the novel realm.

 

I agree that it upsets me to see Mr. Punch and Signal To Noise being ignored, when both are superior books to The Sandman and in my opinion the greatest comics ever written.

At the same time, Mr. Punch and Signal to Noise are lone Graphic Novels while The Sandman is an ongoing monthly title which lasted for 75 + issues.

 

I haven't found any ongoing comic book series which equals or surpasses the brilliance of The Sandman. I would say it is the best comic series ever written.

Maus seems to get more praise than The Sandman, yet Maus is the most over-rated book I believe I have ever read. It's not bad, but nowhere near deserving of the level of praise it receives. Opinions are always going to be divided.

But, Sandman is not completely beyond anything else in the industry. There are other series I have enjoyed more and other series which come close to being just as brilliant as Sandman.

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What about the Death trades?

I better go and count my Sandman...

maybe if I miss work tomorrow i'll have time

oh let me do it now.

 

I count 14 trades and Creatures of the Night

(Didnt have time to check the titles)

and then I found my other copy of Smoke and Mirrors

which means I can give one copy to a friend...

maybe as his unbirthday present.

 

That sounds complete, doesnt it?

I do have the Dream Hunters - the monk and the fox.

an elegant story. And yep, I got Midnite days

they have Hold me also in that volume

Hold me also appears in the HB trade that came with the movie

 

What's the annual Christian?

 

I'm afraid I'm one of those completist

when I can be - not always possible here

 

The Death Trades are Sandman related, but not actually part of the Sandman mythos. They were a spin-off series written by Neil Gaiman.

You could include them.

The first one is very much worth reading. The second one is pretty bland.

 

Creatures of the Night is totally different. It's Neil Gaiman turning a few of his short stories into comic book stories. Nothing at all to do with Sandman.

 

Smoke & Mirrors while simply genius and must own for all Neil Gaiman fans is a collection of prose short stories and a few poems. Nothing at all to do with Sandman.

 

The Annual was collected in one of the Sandman Trades. Don't worry Gen. You own the Annual.

It was the story about Orpheus.

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