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hagren

Beyond A Joker

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Spiderman 2?

Batman Begins?

Batman Returns?

Superman Returns (I dont know myself, but most forumites love it)?

 

Personally, i think X-Men 2 is a greater film than the first.

But part one is more fun.

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Spiderman 2?

Batman Begins?

Batman Returns?

Superman Returns (I dont know myself, but most forumites love it)?

 

Personally, i think X-Men 2 is a greater film than the first.

But part one is more fun.

 

 

Well, Batman begins is a reset button, so i wouldn't count it.

 

Batman Returns is a Christmas movie, like Home Alone, and a bunch of others. Dunno if it's quite better than the first. Superman returns is a requel, or whatever made-up word they're using for it nowadays...

 

Spider-Man 2 (hey, Mark!) could be a contender.

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Superman 2

 

Seriously, watch it again, and this time pay attention to the glaring plot holes, woeful "comedy" sequences, shoddy special effects, spectacularly unevenness of tone, and utterly nonsensical deus-ex conclusion.* Realise how FUCKING WRONG you are. Hang your head in shame.

 

Roll on the Richard Donner "directors cut".

 

 

*OK, so the original Superman has one of those too. But it's (marginally) less crap.

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Wll, Mark, the whole rotating the Earth clockwise makes the first one a bit worse. Plus, Zod.

 

 

I am really looking forward to Richard Donnr's cut. Hopefully it'll be a bit like the Blade Runner DC, actually shortening the film... :D

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Terrence Stamp in Limey is the quintessential "Old John Constantine".

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Superman 2

 

Seriously, watch it again, and this time pay attention to the glaring plot holes, woeful "comedy" sequences, shoddy special effects, spectacularly unevenness of tone, and utterly nonsensical deus-ex conclusion.* Realise how FUCKING WRONG you are. Hang your head in shame.

 

Roll on the Richard Donner "directors cut".

 

 

*OK, so the original Superman has one of those too. But it's (marginally) less crap.

 

There is absolutely no doubt in me that Superman II is the better movie. My brain might chime in sometimes and say 'erm' but fuck that. Really, in some cases, one has to abandon traditional cinematic values in favour of sheer fun/cool factor.

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Wll, Mark, the whole rotating the Earth clockwise makes the first one a bit worse. Plus, Zod.

 

As I've said before, there's the core of a superb film in Superman II, but it's thoroughly undercut by the sheer weight of crap "comedy", inconsistent tone and UTTERLY NONSENSICAL conclusion, all of which are a result of the film being taken over by a new director when it was nearly finished, and re-edited/re-shot into total incomprehensibility. The "Superman goes back in time" ending of the original is a bit crap, but at least it just about makes sense on a narrative level. The "you can never, ever, under any circumstances, regain your powers once you've given them up" -> "Shit, I want my powers back" -> "Oh, alright then" ending of the sequel, along with the cellophane-'S'-shield-of-doom and magic-kiss-of-forgetfulness, are in a whole 'nother league of stupid. I thoroughly enjoy Superman II, but there's just no way it's better than the original in its current form. Not even close. I can accept people thinking it's more fun (the original, while superb, is definitely a bit slow and po-faced), but "better"? No.

 

Mind you, Terence Stamp is, indeed, ace.

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Question:

 

Which Joker origin do you guys think/hope will be worked into TDK?

 

1) Batman creating the Joker by throwing him into waste, thus causing Bat's grief that he created his own nemesis...

 

or

 

2) Failed comedian/husband turned psychopath after swimming in waste?

 

 

I personally prefer Batman creating the Joker since I think adds more depth to their relationship and may add more dynamic to the story. What do you guys think?

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I also started thinking tho, when Batman confronts the Joker for the first time in this film, will he already be Joker with the pale white skin or what?

 

The whole "bit theatrical" and leavin the Joker card is questionable to how this story's going to work out. Hopefully, he's still "normal" when he confronts Bat's until he has his freak accident and turns... Jokery. (srry, couldn't thin of anything :lol: )

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Well since the Joker is introduced of sorts by the end of Batman Begins, it would be messy to then have had Batman somewhere between Ra's Al Ghul and the meeting with gordon atop of Gotham Central, to have confronted and created the Joker already.

 

Batman creating his own nemesis is also one of those ultra neat ironic circles that really bore me.

Not that it couldn't be handled psychologically well ofcourse (I can still smell Goyer), but it's a bit of a yawn really.

 

Dark Knight Returns (Best graphic novel voted by you the STH forumites) did it better by suggesting that the very presence of a Batman created his Super Villian Rogue gallery.

 

Thats still a tad cynical and neat, but it's better than a cliched or contrived direct influence.

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if he were a grinning psychopath who killed people occasionally and a pre fight with batman or bruce wayne deforms him and turns up the murderous rage,it's also the only believable reason why batman would never kill him. guilt.

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I'd go with #1, since option #2 has absolutely no psychological validity is any way, shape, or form.

I'd say option 2 does.

 

It gives said protagonist a reason to blame everything on.

 

"It was all because i fell in toxic waste" (a classic case of trauma) or whatever, when the seeds of madness and violance created by a massive double failure (especially in the Male psyche) where there already.

 

I know you're the shrink Christian, but that still makes sense.

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I can't tell you the number of times I've had psychopaths come into my office talking about how their lives were fine until some vigilante came along and shoved them into toxic chemicals, and now all they want to do is kill, kill, kill.

It happens more than most people realize.

But, I'm not at privilege to talk about my imaginary cases.

 

The one thing I will say is that the Alan Moore origin option gave impetus for J.M. DeMatteis' "Going Sane" story-arc of LOTDK, which is the most wonderful Joker story ever written.

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I disagree frequently with Christian, but I'm very much on the same page as him here. Moore's Killing Joke origin doesn't really work for me (I much prefer the Joker's origins to be shrouded in mystery - the original 'Red Hood' story gives about as much detail as is really needed to make the character effective, and too much lily-gilding only saps the character of impact), but 'Going Sane' is a cracking story.

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There is a bit in The Killing Joke where the Joker says that the tale he tells might not be the absolute truth, but just the version that he happens to have remembered that day. So Moore gets to eat his cake and have it at the same time.

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Seconded.

 

 

Also, the riff on that in Mad Love, where he tells his clown-pants, dad-beating story...

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There is a bit in The Killing Joke where the Joker says that the tale he tells might not be the absolute truth, but just the version that he happens to have remembered that day. So Moore gets to eat his cake and have it at the same time.

 

 

True, but that always felt like bit of a cop-out. If that was really the way Moore wanted to tell the origin, he'd have done better to have the story contradict itself, or at least to include hints that it might not be entirely accurate. Besides, the way it's been treated in other comics since has pretty firmly codified it as the "official" DCU Joker origin, which is mildly annoying.

 

The Mad Love bit is ace, though.

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True, but that always felt like bit of a cop-out. If that was really the way Moore wanted to tell the origin, he'd have done better to have the story contradict itself, or at least to include hints that it might not be entirely accurate.

 

Why? Since the Joker's comments don't come until the end of the story, it would just result in an unsatisfying read for the most part. I know I'd sit there going "but what about... and didn't he...?". I don't see why you can't just take the Joker at his word.

 

Personally, I don't see the problem with giving the Joker a concrete origin. It's not as interesting as the idea that he has, to use his own term, a "multiple choice" past, but I don't think it irrevocably ruins the character.

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Well, as you say, it's a rather cheap way to have his cake and eat it too. He spends the entire book telling one origin, uncontradicted, and adds a single line saying "of course, if you don't like this you can ignore it". It's better than not including the line at all, but it's still a bit half-arsed - if Moore was actually interested in writing the Joker as a figure whose past is shrouded in mystery, even to himself, it strikes me that writing a book revolving around a single, detailed, plausible(ish) origin story for that character wasn't the best way of doing so.

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