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Beyond A Joker

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Joker is clearly the strongest, most balancing of his enemies though.

 

Saying they can't have him back is like tying the next few movies up to second rate plots.

 

Who do they go with as an opponent, that's if it isn't Superman anyway.

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Joker is clearly the strongest, most balancing of his enemies though.

 

Saying they can't have him back is like tying the next few movies up to second rate plots.

 

Who do they go with as an opponent, that's if it isn't Superman anyway.

I'm not sure that's true. Batty has a very fine rogues gallery, and the fact that the Joker is the best known doesn't necessarily make him the best. That said, a few of the really odd ones would probably be seen as far to quirky for the current trilogy, which is a pity. It'd be great to see if they could Clayface properly, or even just take the ventriloquist or black mask halfway seriously.

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I do like Joker as a villian, but I've always been partial to Two-Face. I think he makes such a great nemesis for Batman because it's personal, Dent and Wayne were good friends, and Bruce blames himself for Harvey becoming Two-Face. Think of all the times Bruce, or as Batman, tried to help Two-Face only to have it fail.

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I do like Joker as a villian, but I've always been partial to Two-Face. I think he makes such a great nemesis for Batman because it's personal, Dent and Wayne were good friends, and Bruce blames himself for Harvey becoming Two-Face. Think of all the times Bruce, or as Batman, tried to help Two-Face only to have it fail.

Kinda ruined by the fact that he's currently deceased though.

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Even better reason why this is a good thing: they've done the Joker now. Who really thinks that a return appearance would be able to say anything significant with/about the character which wasn't already covered in The Dark Knight? "More of the same" isn't a good reason to re-use a character - and even if they did come up with an interesting new take on the character, with an interesting new actor, it'd still be coming so soon on the heels of the previous film's near-definitive version that it would struggle not to feel faintly redundant. I'd far rather see Nolan et al using that screentime to show us something new instead. Besides, it's not like the Batman universe is short of compelling characters who haven't yet made it to the screen.

 

well put. What about Red Hood? or Bane? Killer Croc might be silly. What about Luthor? Surely there's overlap like in Justice League. King Tut?

 

I think it will be Catwoman but this time without Penguin. Would Batfans be open to a brand new villain made for the film and never seen before in the comic?

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Would Batfans be open to a brand new villain made for the film and never seen before in the comic?

I think that "what batfans are open to" a)varies wildly with which batfan you ask, and b)is a very very poor starting point for making a good film.

 

That being said, there really should be zillions of good villains to choose from.

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I had someone else in mind, actually, but for the life of me can't remember who.

 

Two and a half months later and I remember it was Naomi Watts.

 

To justify bringing up a dead thread, Batman 3 will commence filming in April in New Orleans.

 

Killer Croc, maybe?

No.

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Hmmm. No character named, so we don't even know he'll be playing the main bad guy, whoever that turns out to be.

 

(Myself, I'd like to see Scarface in one of these things, but Nolan isn't going to go for that, is he?)

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I doubt that the studios will go for that even if Nolan does. They want villains with name recognition. So unless they include Scarface in a secondary villain role, it probably won't happen. Would've been fun though.

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...Still Christian Bale. Why would you ask?

 

I doubt that the studios will go for that even if Nolan does. They want villains with name recognition. So unless they include Scarface in a secondary villain role, it probably won't happen. Would've been fun though.

 

D'oh! You were talking about the villains themselves!

 

I don't imagine Nolan using Scarface, but surely Ra's Al Ghoul isn't all that recognizable?

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Ra's definitely has a much much higher profile than Scarface. In fact, I'd say that Ra's might be every bit as familiar as Riddler or the Penguin these days. I don't remember the last time I saw the Penguin in a major storyline and the Riddler usually just pops up here and there causing some minor mayhem. But given his relationship to Talia and Damien, Ra's has been on the fringes of Grant Morrison's work on Batman for a while now.

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The people bankrolling it, obviously.

 

Incidentally, those people would be more concerned with who the general public can recognize.

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"The Dark Knight" would still have been a massive success, and The Joker one of the best all-time superhero villains if he'd been invented just for that film. It's the quality of the villain that counts, not history.

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That may be, but that's how it is with the studios. I'm not saying they're in the right.

 

How well known was Cilian Murphy to the general public? Or Liam Neeson (yeah, Star Wars - but how many non-nerds can place his name?)? Or Aaron Eckheart? And yeah, Ledger was well-known but only really for Brokeback Mountain, which came out three years before - I'll bet that a good percentage of the film's initial success came from his posthumous news coverage.

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That may be, but that's how it is with the studios. I'm not saying they're in the right.

 

How well known was Cilian Murphy to the general public? Or Liam Neeson (yeah, Star Wars - but how many non-nerds can place his name?)? Or Aaron Eckheart? And yeah, Ledger was well-known but only really for Brokeback Mountain, which came out three years before - I'll bet that a good percentage of the film's initial success came from his posthumous news coverage.

 

 

I think Kate was talking about recognozable villains, wasn't he? Anyway, I'd disagree with "how well known to the general public was Liam Neeson" - he's been a Hollywood A-lister for the best part of 20 years. There was a little film called Schindler's List that got a few good reviews. And Gangs of New York. And Rob Roy. And Michael Collins yadda yadda yadda

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That may be, but that's how it is with the studios. I'm not saying they're in the right.

 

How well known was Cilian Murphy to the general public? Or Liam Neeson (yeah, Star Wars - but how many non-nerds can place his name?)? Or Aaron Eckheart? And yeah, Ledger was well-known but only really for Brokeback Mountain, which came out three years before - I'll bet that a good percentage of the film's initial success came from his posthumous news coverage.

Yeah, he was talking about Villains themselves. Not the actors.

 

Speaking of which, I would have personally loved seeing Joseph Gorden Lewitt play the Riddler. He's got the looks & acting chops for it.

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Ra's definitely has a much much higher profile than Scarface. In fact, I'd say that Ra's might be every bit as familiar as Riddler or the Penguin these days.

 

Agreed on the first - although prior to Batman Begins, it'd have been a close-run thing - but firmly disagreed on the latter. Ra's is a reasonably well-known character in the aftermath of his big-screen appearance - but he's not in the same league of near-universal recognizability as the Riddler or Penguin. When it comes to public awareness of Batman villains, it really is impossible to overstate the pop-culture significance of the '60s show, in which they were given massive prominence, on top of which they were both in big, successful movies back in the early-to-mid-'90s. Even in Batman: The Animated Series, which had a decent but not massive profile in non-nerd circles, the Penguin and Riddler are far more prominently- and frequently-used than Ra's Al Ghul.

 

Ra's is a great character, but he lacks the high-concept, iconic qualities of Penguin, Riddler, Joker, Two-Face or Catwoman - I suspect that his backstory is a bit more complex, his appearance less instantly attention-grabbing, for him ever to come close, in fact. Those five are far and away the best-known Bat-villains to both nerds and non-nerds alike, and there's a big recognition gap between them and any of the others.

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Yeah, I was definitely overstating the case there. But I don't know if there's that much of a gap between the recognition factor of Penguin/Riddler and Ra's among the nerds. Many of the nerds I know cite Tales of the Demon among their favourite Bat stories. I suppose it's possible that the nerds I know are more hardcore than the average nerd. Who's to say?

 

But yes, amongst non-nerds there's definitely a gap in recognition, I agree.

 

One point I was meaning to make is that these days, as far as comics readers are concerned, Ra's is enjoying a comparative rise in his profile.

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