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JohnMcMahon

The Totally Off-Topic Movie Thread

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At least my claim has the benefit of being backed up by a sizeable amount of people all over the world, as well as a goodly number of literature critics. (Spot the two debate-rule fallacies in that sentence!)

 

Do you really think comparing JLEurope to LOTR is relevant? I think someone claiming JLE being great literature would be a tad more ludicrous than the claim that LOTR is, no? (Now you're going to reply that it was me who dragged superhero comics into this, to which I reply: I WAS KIDDING, just as I think Tom was)

 

Like I said, I think it's pointless to argue a lot over this. We're not going to agree.

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My point was that i would think Hellblazer can, at its best, be better and more relevant than LOTR and it's all-too-well-developed languages and mythology.

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Just for the record, I enjoyed reading LOTR. But I wouldn't dream of calling it great literature.

 

In the same way that I enjoy reading Harry Potter books but I wouldn't call them great literature.

 

And the fact that 80-90% of fantasy literature is derivative of Tolkien says more about fantasy literature than it does about Tolkien.

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Just for the record, I enjoyed reading LOTR. But I wouldn't dream of calling it great literature.

 

same here.

 

In the same way that I enjoy reading Harry Potter books but I wouldn't call them great literature.

 

okay, i would stil prefer LOTR to HP, but mayne that's 'cause i chose to read one, and had the other forced upon me... (feel free to pun)

 

And the fact that 80-90% of fantasy literature is derivative of Tolkien says more about fantasy literature than it does about Tolkien.

 

just like most of the superhero "literature" is derivative of Supes and several other heroes... ;)

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that's why it irks me to see Tolkien fans getting all high 'n' mighty over us feebleminded superhero fans. Millions of fans doesn't mean something is GOOD literature, merely influential. Hary potter is the perfect example of this.

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Maybe i would too, if i didn't have to translate 850 pages of it in a month, then reread it 2-3 times to cleran out any errors and typos.

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At least my claim has the benefit of being backed up by a sizeable amount of people all over the world, as well as a goodly number of literature critics. (Spot the two debate-rule fallacies in that sentence!)

 

Do you really think comparing JLEurope to LOTR is relevant? I think someone claiming JLE being great literature would be a tad more ludicrous than the claim that LOTR is, no? (Now you're going to reply that it was me who dragged superhero comics into this, to which I reply: I WAS KIDDING, just as I think Tom was)

 

Like I said, I think it's pointless to argue a lot over this. We're not going to agree.

 

I'm going to agree with Red. I'm not a simpering fanboy. I havent read a lot of Tolkien's work and I'm less of a rabid and knowledgeable fan than many of the people on this board even, I think. I keep forgetting names of characters etc. But I do think LOTR can be considered great literature. It takes an enormous amount of skill to be able to create a world as detailed and evocative as Middle Earth and thats not to mention the epic story.

 

I do also, of course, agree with Rogan when he says that its stupid of Tolkien fans to think they rule over all that is fantasy/scifi. That's just moronic.

 

And lastly, I don't think its fair to compare LOTR with Hellblazer. No more than its fair to compare Beethoven with The Beatles or Apocalypse Now with The Evil Dead. They're all great but there is such a thing called genre or context or 'what a particular work is trying to achieve'. I love Hellblazer as much as I do LOTR, in some ways more. But I wouldnt compare the two.

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Skill does not equal great quality.

 

 

And i really dislike the obsessive teenage Tolien fans who go on and write their diaries in elvish runes (true story!), and learn dvarven genealogies by heart.

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Skill does not equal great quality.

 

 

And i really dislike the obsessive teenage Tolien fans who go on and write their diaries in elvish runes (true story!), and learn dvarven genealogies by heart.

 

True, but I think there is great quality in Tolkien's work. Having just written two papers I really don't want to write another thesis, so I'll leave it at that :biggrin:

 

And it's also unfair to transfer hostility towards Tolkien's fanatical fans (which btw I share, Rogan) on to his work, isnt it? Of course, I don't know if you were doing that....

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And i really dislike the obsessive teenage Tolien fans who go on and write their diaries in elvish runes (true story!), and learn dvarven genealogies by heart.

Why? For people populating a messageboard for people with something bordering on obsession for a comic book, with extreme nerd-like discussions about every single aspect of the character, story and connections to other comic titles, you show an amazing degree of snobbery! Why is it worse to know dwarven genealogies than knowing what happens on every page of every published appearance of John Constantine?

 

(Note: I'm not saying it's wrong to be a HB nerd - I'm one too, ferchrissakes - but I wonder what makes you look down on other shades of nerdery)

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And i really dislike the obsessive teenage Tolien fans who go on and write their diaries in elvish runes (true story!), and learn dvarven genealogies by heart.

Why? For people populating a messageboard for people with something bordering on obsession for a comic book, with extreme nerd-like discussions about every single aspect of the character, story and connections to other comic titles, you show an amazing degree of snobbery! Why is it worse to know dwarven genealogies than knowing what happens on every page of every published appearance of John Constantine?

 

(Note: I'm not saying it's wrong to be a HB nerd - I'm one too, ferchrissakes - but I wonder what makes you look down on other shades of nerdery)

 

Come on, Red, we're definitely HB nerds but I don't think I (or any other person on the board) is in the league of memorizing those huge geneologies or learning languages that dont exist, well enough to write stories in them. I don't spend very much of my life even thinking about Hellblazer, let alone doing anything even close to writing fan fiction. I wouldnt even be on the board half as much if I werent a student who has to spend way too much time writing papers at a computer with a 24 hr broadband connection, desperate to put off having to go back to the word processor window.

 

There's nerds and there's Nerds.

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Really? And where do you draw the line?

- At writing fan fiction? (zip, cart away several members of STH)

- At dressing up like your hero? (zip, cart away some more)

- At knowing obscenely obscure information? (zip goes James and Adrian)

- At spending hours debating what ifs and alternate stories? (zip goes me)

- At having social get-togethers based on the shared love of the product? (zip goes the Bristol crowd)

 

Shades of gray, Abi! Why this need to look down on other nerds? Don't you see that would be punching yourself in the face?

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Guest spiderlegs
143 minutes? Bloody hell, that's a bit long isn't it?

 

Cheers, Uriel.

 

This automatically means "wait for the DVD release" to me. I've sat through all 3 LOTR films, and a handful of other noteworthy films that have run long, but 143 minutes of THIS film sounds excrutiating!

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Really? And where do you draw the line?

- At writing fan fiction? (zip, cart away several members of STH)

- At dressing up like your hero? (zip, cart away some more)

- At knowing obscenely obscure information? (zip goes James and Adrian)

- At spending hours debating what ifs and alternate stories? (zip goes me)

- At having social get-togethers based on the shared love of the product? (zip goes the Bristol crowd)

 

Shades of gray, Abi! Why this need to look down on other nerds? Don't you see that would be punching yourself in the face?

 

I'm pretty sure most of us don't want to belong to the Tolkien crowd and they probably want no part of ours, but aside from that... those things you mentioned are what nerdy fandom is all about.

 

I once attended a lecture on 'The world of Tolkien", given by the former chairman of the Dutch Tolkien fanclub. He was a regular über-nerd. The first part of the lecture was interesting enough, that was about the languages and history of Middle Earth and Tolkien's process of writing. But after the guy launched into a lenghty description of the Tolkien gatherings he attended every year at Oxford, my friend and I decamped quickly. We noticed the adoring glaces thrown at the 'former chairman' by some elderly ladies, and were very afraid of having a giggling fit.

 

I dunno if teenage Tolkien fans are worse than middle-aged ones, but I daresay their age is some excuse for romantic fads like writing diaries in Elven runes... In a fifty-year old it's kinda pathetic. (I'm still wondering why he was a *former* chairman - something funny about that - there was just a hint of resentment when he mentioned it... ;))

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At least my claim has the benefit of being backed up by a sizeable amount of people all over the world, as well as a goodly number of literature critics. (Spot the two debate-rule fallacies in that sentence!)

Ah, stole my thunder. They are the Appeal to Popularity and the Appeal to Authority. :happy:

 

But I think you have a point with the critics. It's nice to say that all appreciation of art is opinion, and one person's opinion matters as much as another's. But even in the aesthetic realms we are forced sometimes to make decisions. For instance, what books should be assigned to pupils as exemplary literature? What writings are worthy of respect (and emulation short of plaigarism)?

 

I think that the LOTR books have literary merit, but they don't quite work as "great" literature for me. Some children's literature counts as great, including Oscar Wilde's writings and Robert Louis Stevenson's, so I'm not excluding the whole genre, I just don't think Tolkien's stuff ranks up that high.

 

What do you think of Conan? I've been following Dark Horse's new Conan title, and if many of the bits of narrative are taken straight from Robert E. Howard's writings as I think they are, then that man was gifted as a writer and could really put together a sentence. According to some, he made great additions to fantasy writing and singlehandedly created the swords and sorcery genre. But is Conan great literature?

 

Just asking. Whether it's good literature or not, I like the Harry Potter stuff myself. And can't help but feel that HB has more to say to most adults than LOTR does.

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I'd say The Never-Ending Story has equal or more claims to great literature than LOTR.

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May I just remind you all that this "debate" started by someone knocking the LOTR? I'm neither claiming it's the greatest thing ever or that there isn't other fanatsy literature that's really good. Just that LOTR deserves some respect, whether it's your cup of tea or not.

 

I can't say about Conan since Conan comics have always bored me. Conan has the same flaw as Superman: He's unbeatable.

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Just that LOTR deserves some respect, whether it's your cup of tea or not.

 

Actually, it doesn't. People deserve at least minimal respect, but creative works are not inherently deserving of respect.

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For the period Robert E. Howard was writing (writers were paid by the word), he was amazing! As far as I know, he was not highly educated either; which is amazing when you think of some of his word choices and descriptive passages. Just goes to show that you don't need a higher education to be highly educated!

 

Yes, Howard created Sword & Sorcery fiction. But, no Robert E. Howard's writing is not respect (neither is H.P. Lovecraft's, Michael Moorcock's, etc) because they chose to wrote fantastical stories. Yes, they have weaknesses in their writing, but really, doesn't every writer?! I would consider Robert E. Howard's "Conan" stories to be classics, regardless of how the literary world feels about them.

 

Personally, the new Dark Horse series bores me to tears!

Yes, a few of the issues are adaptations of Howard short stories. BUT, I already own the Marvel adaptations!

 

If you want to read REALLY a good "Conan" comic book, hunt down the Marvel Roy Thomas written issues from the 1970s (first 120 issues)! They are amazing, and a wonderful homage to Robert E. Howard, plus you get the Dark Horse adaptations (only done by Thomas and Barry Windsor-Smith) of the original Howard stories included in the run.

The entire Thomas run is currently being collected into TPBs by Dark Horse. I think they're up to around issue #60.

 

Also, if you want to read Robert E. Howard's actual "Conan" short stories, Del Ray is collecting all of them into amazing, AFFORDABLE collections. First time the "Conan" stories have been in print since the 1970s.

 

Oh and Red? I do not see how you can compare Conan to Superman! Conan has NO super powers. He is a normal man, albeit a highly skilled barbarian warrior (who eventually becomes a king). Any adventure Conan went on, he could've been killed easily; but because he is the STAR of the stories, of course he survives!

Saying you don't like him because he always wins in the end, is like saying you don't like John Constantine because he's never been killed.

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Oh, and I just read the debate, and I must chime in:

Writing fan fiction and playing "dress-up" are the lowest form of entertainment on the planet! :lol:

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