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JohnMcMahon

Hellblazer #227

  

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  1. 1. Your marks out of 10, please...

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Guest spiderlegs
Another aspect that I've enjoyed from Mina is the very postulation of there being a third option.

 

Anyone read Hegel? Any two opposites have a synthesis of the two called an absolute which is a third option.

 

That's close to the way I think, too. Being unsophisticated, I always referred to it as the "triangle theory" because my point was that most choices are not "either, or" or "right, left" or "True, false". That a 3rd option often exists at some point off the "x" axis of 2 extremes. Not a "center" or "median" point at equidistance from either side, but one which makes the "a, b, c" choices connect to form a triangle.

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Another aspect that I've enjoyed from Mina is the very postulation of there being a third option.

 

Anyone read Hegel? Any two opposites have a synthesis of the two called an absolute which is a third option.

 

That's close to the way I think, too. Being unsophisticated, I always referred to it as the "triangle theory" because my point was that most choices are not "either, or" or "right, left" or "True, false". That a 3rd option often exists at some point off the "x" axis of 2 extremes. Not a "center" or "median" point at equidistance from either side, but one which makes the "a, b, c" choices connect to form a triangle.

 

I see it as a triangle too. Probably because Hegel expressed the third option that way, and because the Kaballah have the top three sephiroth on the tree of life as binah and chokmah as left and right with kether being their union above them (for all you budding magicians). The pyramid with the eye too, I imagine that's what it is primarily derived from.

 

I understand some of the replies saying this third option isn't fully developed, but I already have had the concept put into my head, and no comic book in years has put new ideas into my head, and truly I don't go looking to comics for mind expanding ideas.

 

It is just fun to see things you are familiar with in your entertainment, things a little more complex than the final season of Friends could ever boast about. That's all, no need for Mina to blow my mind.

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That's a bit of an over-simplification of Hegel's theory of dialectics, most significantly in that it posits the whole process as a static, self-contained unit, when the real purpose of the theory is to illustrate the development of ideas over a period of time. Expressed as a diagram, a Hegelian dialectical progression forms a (rough) zig-zagged line, not a single triangle. The reduction of the process to a triadic structure is not a new interpretation of his work, but it's one which has, so far as I'm aware, been widely discredited, especially in recent years.

 

It's an interesting theory, but not one which I think has much relevance here - the Kabbalistic triangle you refer to is a bit more relevant, although I don't see much of a connection between that and Hegel myself.

 

Ultimately, though, I just ain't as impressed by Mina's use of the Third Place as either of you. I don't always go looking to comics for mind-expanding ideas either, but I do find comics which provide them occasionally anyway, and they're generally executed rather more interestingly than this. A great idea isn't worth much unless you can then turn it into a great (or at least, a good) story, and I don't think Mina has. Which is a shame, because I agree that the idea is a good one.

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It would indeed, but I can understand why she probably wouldn't want to, and don't really blame her.

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Another problem I have with the Third Place is I absolutely hate a writer telling me how something is, which is where my complaint about Mina expecting everyone to just accept that the Third Place is worse than Heaven or Hell, apriori. She just sneaks that little line in there, "It's far worse than Heaven or Hell" and just drops it as if there's no room for argument about that idea. That's my biggest pet peeve with writing. To go off topic a bit, I found this same complaint in Brubaker's newest issue of D.D. with Vanessa Fisk. D.D. just drops the line, "Vanessa is far more ruthless than Wilson Fisk." How so? Because you tell us it's so, that's supposed to make her a great villain character?

 

And, how can the Third Place be worse if the imagination is so powerful in the Third Place, as John showed with the hamburgers? That didn't make any sense of me. How can you have unlimited powers of imagination in a place that is supposed to be pure apathy? How can you have apathy when you have unbridled ability to use your imagination? A place where you can harness pure imagination is far better than either Heaven or Hell, which are two places based on a total lack of ability for imagination.

 

There's already alternatives too. You could wind up a ghost and be stuck on Earth (or at least until someone exorcises you). You can refuse to die and live eternally (or until you fuck it up), although that's a very small minority. And, doesn't Hellblazer go by the DCU idea of the afterlife, in that Buddhists get to be reincarnated until they find Nirvana, and etc. based on all belief systems of the world/universe?

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Another problem I have with the Third Place is I absolutely hate a writer telling me how something is, which is where my complaint about Mina expecting everyone to just accept that the Third Place is worse than Heaven or Hell, apriori. She just sneaks that little line in there, "It's far worse than Heaven or Hell" and just drops it as if there's no room for argument about that idea.

 

If you're that bothered, just assume that it's John talking and not the author. In fact, I can see John thinking that a place without human emotion or the drive to do anything is actually worse than Hell, where you can at least work your way into the ranks of demons or forgive yourself and move on.

 

And, how can the Third Place be worse if the imagination is so powerful in the Third Place, as John showed with the hamburgers? That didn't make any sense of me. How can you have unlimited powers of imagination in a place that is supposed to be pure apathy? How can you have apathy when you have unbridled ability to use your imagination?

 

I don't actually see how those two are connected. A more interesting question is why John and Angie would still be driven to fuck up the Watcher's plans when they're in a place that should logically strip them of any drive or ambition.

 

There's already alternatives too. You could wind up a ghost and be stuck on Earth (or at least until someone exorcises you). You can refuse to die and live eternally (or until you fuck it up), although that's a very small minority. And, doesn't Hellblazer go by the DCU idea of the afterlife, in that Buddhists get to be reincarnated until they find Nirvana, and etc. based on all belief systems of the world/universe?

 

Yes. And? Again, just assume it's "the third place" based on Judeo-Christian definitions (the Watcher being a Christian demon), which largely don't allow for ghosts or immortals.

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But would John think it was worse than Heaven?

 

My last response was in reply to King Mob's comments.

I realize it's a third alternative to the Christian idea of the afterlife, but there are already alternatives available outside of the Christian mind-set in the world of Hellblazer.

And, while limited in duration, Catholicism introduced a third option with Purgatory, although it was probably a derivation of Jewish teachings, rather than a wholly new idea.

I realize Purgatory wouldn't serve the same purpose in the story as The Third Place as competition for Heaven and Hell, but it is a third alternative in the Christian afterlife, even if only with Catholicism.

Two don't create a third alternative. And, Kether actually has three paths not two; Chokmah, Tifereth, and Binah. Kether sits between Chokmah (Father) and Binah (Mother), but is above all the other Sephiroth, and instead of an alternative, Kether is beyond/above opposites. It is where opposites unite to become unity. It is beyond the notion of duality. Kether is where we go to learn to be One with God, and to do so, we need to embrace opposites as One, to move beyond duality. That is what we learn in Kether, before we can move on from this realm to the higher realm. So, I'm not sure how this would figure in with The Third Place which is seen as an alternative to Heaven and Hell. Instead of creating a unity, it is turning duality into a trinity. It doesn't correspond with the Tree of Life.

 

Either response to the second point works. It's an either/or thing. Either the Third Place is one of pure imagination where John and Angie can have drive to fuck up the Watcher's plans or it's a place that saps the will which would mean a lack of imagination. Imagination=Creativity. Creativity is the opposite of apathy.

Either way, The Third Place doesn't make sense.

Right now, with what we've seen of The Third Place, it seems like a place where the writer can do whatever she wishes with the place without having to follow any set rules about a working cosmology, which is more towards the fact that the concept has been largely ignored since it was introduced.

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But would John think it was worse than Heaven?

 

Well, it's just as oppressive, but at least people are happy in Heaven. So: yes.

 

My last response was in reply to King Mob's comments.

I realize it's a third alternative to the Christian idea of the afterlife, but there are already alternatives available outside of the Christian mind-set in the world of Hellblazer.

 

...how do they apply to this story?

 

I realize Purgatory wouldn't serve the same purpose in the story as The Third Place as competition for Heaven and Hell, but it is a third alternative in the Christian afterlife, even if only with Catholicism.

Two don't create a third alternative.

 

Maybe purgatory is the fourth place?

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Purgatory would be the waiting place, surely?

Limbo is the third place and the Third Place is in fact the Fourth Place (or else it is Limbo).

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My last response was in reply to King Mob's comments.

I realize it's a third alternative to the Christian idea of the afterlife, but there are already alternatives available outside of the Christian mind-set in the world of Hellblazer.

 

...how do they apply to this story?

 

The same way Hegel and Kabbalah do? heh

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I finally got this issue in the mail.

 

I don't really see what all the fuss is about. I was entertained. Sure, it wasn't the best, but I didn't have a problem with it.

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Hey. New member to the board. Um...yeah well I for one have been collecting Hellblazer on again off again since my first year 'varsity. Five years in and I still cant stop. I really liked Carey's run to be honest. I have most of it. Now regarding # 227.

 

1) Despite the odd tumble Mina's run has been enjoyable.

 

2) She got a cool yet awkward reconicilation out of Chas and John.

 

3) The Praexis and Third Place are surely plot lines for future writers to touch on.

 

4) Manco's art is really starting impress me. Glad his staying for a while.

 

5) Does anyone else find the whole Steve Evans is named after someone Mina knows angle wierd?!?

 

6) I found the nuns to look like blokes.

 

7) The fate of the crisis hinges on Englands footballing skills. Brilliant. Im a portuguese fan and this brought a smile to my face.

 

All in all a sweet read. A seven from me.

All relies on the finale to make or break her run...

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Welcome to the board. Is that a Mike Allred pic for your avatar?

 

1) Disagree, but that's cool.

 

2) I liked the initial bit but I'd have preferred the fallout between John and Chas to have lasted longer, perhaps forever.

 

3) Hope not! 12 issues is enough for me!

 

6) It's the Monty Python troupe.

 

7) Sure, sure, rub it in. :(

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Possibly even a Ghostly Chas (Chas wouldn't actually have to be dead mind you, but as guilt thing).

 

Or possibly not, because that would be crap. :p

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Possibly even a Ghostly Chas (Chas wouldn't actually have to be dead mind you, but as guilt thing).

 

Or possibly not, because that would be crap. :p

It's all in the execution, but I do get carried away. :happy:

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Welcome to the board. Is that a Mike Allred pic for your avatar?

 

1) Disagree, but that's cool.

 

2) I liked the initial bit but I'd have preferred the fallout between John and Chas to have lasted longer, perhaps forever.

 

3) Hope not! 12 issues is enough for me!

 

6) It's the Monty Python troupe.

 

7) Sure, sure, rub it in. :(

 

Thanks for the welcome, James.

 

Yup its an Allred pic from X-Statix. Im a huge fan of that run.

 

1) Look I understand its been way inferior to the top quality we used to, Ennis, Ellis and the such but

Mina still held a decent narrative in the first arc at least. But yeah your right 12 is enough. Diggle should be good.

 

3) Monthy Python troupe...I swear the one nun looked like John Constantine for a second...

 

7) Heh hey theres always Euro coming up soon you never know....

 

Anyone looking forward to the Diggle run? or are there trepid reservations. I read half his LOSERS run always found it good fun.

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I was worried about Diggle at first, since everything I've read of his (The Losers, Swamp Thing, Adam Strange) has totally lost my interest by about the halfway mark. However, he's been talking it up on here and the pitch for his first arc sounds great. And after this seemingly never-ending story it'll be like finding an ice cream van in a desert.

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I was worried about Diggle at first, since everything I've read of his (The Losers, Swamp Thing, Adam Strange) has totally lost my interest by about the halfway mark. However, he's been talking it up on here and the pitch for his first arc sounds great. And after this seemingly never-ending story it'll be like finding an ice cream van in a desert.

 

Good point like I said half of his run then I dropped off. I read Bad Seed which showed promised but never flowered. Oh man I just wrote that. As for Mina one more to go. Um I read / heard somewhere STEVE EVAN's is based on a boyfriend/friend of Mina's? Truth or Bollocks?

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I read Bad Seed which showed promised but never flowered. Oh man I just wrote that.

 

Hey, I thought it was a pretty good pun.

 

Um I read / heard somewhere STEVE EVAN's is based on a boyfriend/friend of Mina's? Truth or Bollocks?

 

Truth. At least, his name is the same as Mina's boyfriend. Apparently her beau's not as fat as the comic book version.

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I read Bad Seed which showed promised but never flowered. Oh man I just wrote that.

 

Hey, I thought it was a pretty good pun.

 

Um I read / heard somewhere STEVE EVAN's is based on a boyfriend/friend of Mina's? Truth or Bollocks?

 

Truth. At least, his name is the same as Mina's boyfriend. Apparently her beau's not as fat as the comic book version.

 

Wow. I was about to say Mr Evans is not exactly a catch for any single woman isnt he. Well I guess he must be a fan or at least is one now.

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For the love of dear god, i've just got round to reading last months (this issue) of hellblazer, what a piece of shit, as excpected, for the love of god get this dreadfull woman off this amazing title she's killing it, is it too early to proclaim her the female howard mackie?

 

And the ending, well i almost vomited, i know my taste in comics isn't upto most of your grade but this was plain shit! can i get the last years worth of money spent on hellblazer back?

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