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JohnMcMahon

Captain America Is A Fucking Pussy

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I'll be the first to admit that most of my opnion of Marvel is based on the collector bubble years of the 90's, but some of the items Mark mentioned have been great endeavors on the part of Marvel to branch out and take some risks as Christian put it. However they have been few and far between. Again I.M.H.O. the problem with Marvel has been just that they are too worried about alienating readers that they aren't willing to risk just that. In the 80's and early 90's DC was producing work that was changing the way the industry was viewed and what readers expectations were of comics. At that same time Marvel was either badly retreading old ideas and storylines or were trying to play catch up. Now I will also admit that DC has not been perfect, I mean I dropped all Bat tiles for about 6 years after the whole Knightsend thing, but they have for the most part as I have seen it focused more on producing a good read every month in most of their titles and have characters that are more dynamic than Marvel's. It maybe wrong to say that is their only problem but it is a big one. Exceptions to the rule aside; Ennis' Punisher, and Ghost Rider, Gaiman's 1602 and Eternals, and anything by Peter David, Marvel has produced more work that looks the shit but reads like shit. Again I'm not trying to convert anyone, but when it came to my experience I read mostly Marvel from when I was ten till I was about fourteen when I wanted something that was more intellectually stimulating and interesting I switched to DC, granted with a focus on Vertigo titles. Ever since I have had more DC than Marvel, superhero titles included in that.

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Sounds like we had a similair Warlock experience.

 

When I was in junior high, my father worked with a 40 year old virgin (true) who had bought every Marvel book for a twenty year stretch. because of my comic book hobby, my dad knew the value of them, and this fellow he worked with had finally met a girl who told him there would be no wedding until he got rid of the comics. He agreed but with the stipulation that he could keep the entire X-men run, of which he had the complete set. This would be a twenty year block from about 1965-1985 with a few more before that and virtually no DC except for Batman, who he also loved. I got the job of grading, bagging, and pricing the whole lot of them and another friend of my dad's opened a comic book shop in the new era of 'direct marketing' of which these comics would be the back stock, so I got a job out of it at the new shop.

 

Needless to say, I read every single book. even Devil Dinosaur and the Eternals. You couldn't give those books away.

 

The guy who owned the shop showed me the Wolveroach run on Cerebus so I started buying that. He also told me to check out the DC titles he thought were best, which amounted to the Flash relaunch, Dark Knight by Miller, and the truly awesome Justice League (wanna make something of it?). Mostly I was a marvelite though.

 

Did you ever read Dreadstar by marvel's Epic imprint? Warlock led me to it.

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No on the Dreadnaught. Warlock wasn't something I could really get into. I always liked Daredevil not just because of the Miller run, but also because I like the character as a whole, concept, attitude, and style. Let me also make clear that the first family of comics was one of my favorite comics growing up. I also have enjoyed multiple other Marvel titles throughout the years some of which I have already mentioned and others which have included, Uncanny X-Men; mainly during Claremonts run in the eighties and nineties, Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider, and a few others. For the most part though when it came to superhero titles I have always just gravitated more to the DC world. Recently I have had a speciffic budget I have to stick to so when it comes down to the wire I always break DC. I also more recently, in the last ten years, have found myself following writers more than particular characters.

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I never read Dreadstar. The Epic imprint was so hit and miss, you never know what to read that'll end up being awesome and what will end up being trash. I stuck to the creators I know when reading any Epic titles.

I've never read David's Sachs & Violens yet though. Heard that was good stuff. I know that DC traded the series last year.

Most of the creator owned Epic titles that were worth reading were all sold off to new companies after Epic died.

 

I still need to read Devil Dinosaur. I heard it's all as crazy as Kirby's Machine Man, which I do own.

I remember hunting down all those reprint titles Marvel released in the 1970s of their Golden Age horror titles, with most of Kirby's early work in them. Those are some real gems.

Tim-Boo-Ba, Gorgilla, Zzzutak, Moomba, Torr, and on and on....Classic!

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Are you trying to swing me back to sympathy for Cap?

 

I don't give a flying fuck who won American Idol, and to be honest, I've lost interest in Baseball completely. Sally's argument is a load of shite. Nobody rich and powerful is bothering with pop culture, they're too busy doing 'things'. For her to suggest that Cap is out of touch with the common man is a good thing, in my humblest of opinions, as Jerry Springer fans and Nascar watchers aren't influential people. They don't shape culture or move big money around or develop new technologies. Let the masses hide in the subway, I say.

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I'm almost impressed that, despite the fact that I've always been a DC boy at heart, have no emotional investment in the Marvel Universe, and prior to Ed Brubaker's run, I'd never so much as looked at a Captain America comic, this scene still comes close to making me actually annoyed. Or it would, if it wasn't so hilariously inept (when I first saw it on a blog, I genuinely didn't believe that the dialogue was real - I just assumed it had to be a photoshopped parody). Shitty, shitty writing. What the fuck happened to Paul Jenkins?

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Asking Captain America a question like that is just completely retarded. The guy doesn't have time to use myspace or youtube and I really don't think he would give a flying fuck either.

 

When you spend half your time training to keep yourself in as good shape as he does, and also spend that other half fighting crime. You don't have time to sit and watch American Idol.

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"Why don't you care about Paris Hilton, Cap? Do you hate America?"

 

"I. Fought. HITLER."

 

"..."

 

END OF STORY.

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Funnily enough, Ben Urich told her to shut the fuck up after that.

 

"You are out of touch with the people of America. You don't watch Nascar, You don't know who won American idol or what Youtube is and you don't use Myspace. You no longer fight for the people."

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WTF?

 

When t you read the dialogue it seems evryone stops for a breather between speech bubbles. It's that lame, and who gives a shit about American Idol anyway?

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:lol: -When Ben Urich tells you to shut up, you know things are really sad.

 

It reads as an editorial rewrite to me. That's what I'm going to keep saying, as I tightly hug my Inhumans maxi-series by Paul Jenkins.

You seriously have to believe that Jenkins is doing a hack job while the editors are the ones actually writing this crap.

 

Seriously, while I do get perturbed when writers with real talent like Jenkins are completely wasted like this, in most circumstances, I would just laugh this shite off. It's the comic business. It's not as if I didn't live through the 1990s. The only reason I get so pissed with this story-line is because of the way Marvel marketed this Civil War bull as "possibly the most important story ever written about post-9/11 America!" (hyperbole added, slightly). If they would've just said, "This is a big slugfest between our top heroes, hopefully more exciting than DC's Crisis cross-over.", I would just laugh it off and roll my eyes. But, Marvel is really asking for a good whipping with their fucking attitude.

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The comic itself is all kinds of bad -

 

Anyone who had the anti-reg heroes marked down as sheep for simply giving up the ghost after Cap surrendered will be happy to know that at least a 1/3 waited for Sentry to announce his support for the act before toeing the line.

 

Tony Stark is responsible for escalating the whole Stamford disaster into an outright civil war and is 100% in control of the current Thunderbolts program. This makes him the greatest hero of all, apparently.

 

Paul Jenkins has a serious crush on the Sally character.

 

Oh, and a MASSIVE 50 odd people died in the skirmish that so freaked-out Captain America.

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I downloaded and checked it out - yeah, that really is a gobsmackingly poor comic. I especially love the way Tony Stark, among other things, deliberately and illegally provoked a war (by tricking the Green Goblin into assassinating an Atlantean ambassador) in which loads of people died, just because the ensuing panic and chaos would get more superheroes to register, all the while secretly making huge amounts of money out of the whole thing via dodgy deals behind the scenes. I'm pretty sure that pushes him over the line from "unsympathetic hero doing the wrong thing for the right reasons" into "outright supervillain", but Marvel don't seem to see it that way. Millar keeps insisting that he'd totally be on Iron Man's side if this was all real, which suggests that he's either lying or a truly scary man.

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To be fair, I don't think Mark Millar's read anything related to Civil War outside of his own scripts. The problem with his "I'm with Stark" view is that he's (Millar) looking at things from the point of view of our own reality instead of the one inhabited by the average Marvel citizen. If I lived in a world where I could wake up one morning to find my planet being in danger of literally being eaten by a giant space God or having my brains sucked out by a crazed alien symbiote, I'd probably be down with dudes in masks that could keep my brain in my head and my planet exactly where it is right now, thank you very much.

 

Also, the Hitler punching.

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To be fair, I don't think Mark Millar's read anything related to Civil War outside of his own scripts.

 

That's fair enough, since it seems from the few tie-ins I've seen that no-one else has been reading his scripts, either.

 

The problem with his "I'm with Stark" view is that he's (Millar) looking at things from the point of view of our own reality instead of the one inhabited by the average Marvel citizen.

 

Bingo. All of his "if this was the real world" nonsense falls flat the very second you realise that the Marvel Universe isn't the real world, and the rules it follows have always been very different. They have to keep the basic "world outside your window" side of things intact, so that their characters still exist in a world which feels familiar to the readers, but that comes at a cost, in terms of long-term plausibility - if the MU actually worked the way our world does, it'd be unrecognizable (just think what the existence of any single one of Reed Richards' inventions, or adamantium, or Pym's make-big-make-small-powder would do to the world, let alone stuff like Galactus, Kang, Thor, etc), therefore any story which actually tries to play on 'real-world' style consequences simply highlights how ridiculous every other Marvel story ever is. Call me crazy, but I don't reckon "look how stupid our entire story-telling history has been" is the best message for a big crossover story to be sending out.

 

 

Also, even by "real world" logic, I'd like to think that people would still have a bit of a problem with stuff like the Thunderbolts yoke - I'm not sure I'd be cool with the FBI hiring convicted terrorists, serial killers and rapists to hunt down a bunch of folks who've saved the world a couple of dozen times over.

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myspacecap.jpg

 

myspacecap2.jpg

 

By gods, thats abysmal, to repeat a well worn sentiment.

 

 

"Why don't you care about Paris Hilton, Cap? Do you hate America?"

 

"I. Fought. HITLER."

 

"..."

 

END OF STORY.

 

Nuff said 8-)

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This might've worked in some off-hand manner (although still been crap) had the characterization of Tony Stark not been so heavy-handed.

It doesn't work at all because Tony wasn't portrayed as a sympathetic character doing what he felt was for the greater good. He was portrayed as a psychopath who would go to any end to acheieve his megalomaniacal goals. He was portrayed in a darker light than a Dr. Doom or a Magneto, until the end of Civil War, when all of a sudden, we're supposed to realize that we should give Stark and his fascist policies a chance because they might lead to a greater good.

 

What Marvel have actually portrayed is, "Hey, Hitler did some good things in Germany. You may not agree with all the Nazis actions, but you have to admit they sure as hell recovered Germany's economy."

Marvel should be ashamed of themselves.

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:angry:

 

Comic Book Hero Captain America Dies

By Associated Press

3 hours ago

 

NEW YORK - Captain America has undertaken his last mission _ at least for now. The venerable superhero is killed in the issue of his namesake comic that hit stands Wednesday, the Daily News reported.

 

On the new edition's pages, a sniper shoots down the shield-wielding hero as he leaves a courthouse, according to the newspaper.

 

It ends a long run for the stars-and-stripes-wearing character, created in 1941 to incarnate patriotic feeling during World War II. Over the years, an estimated 210 million copies of "Captain America" comic books, published by New York-based Marvel Entertainment Inc., have been sold in a total of 75 countries.

 

But resurrections are not unknown in the world of comics, and Marvel Entertainment editor in chief Joe Quesada said a Captain America comeback wasn't impossible.

 

Still, the character's death came as a blow to co-creator Joe Simon.

 

"We really need him now," said Simon, 93, who worked with artist Jack Kirby to devise Captain America as a foe for Adolf Hitler.

 

According to the comic, the superhero was spawned when a scrawny arts student named Steve Rogers, ineligible for the army because of his poor health but eager to serve his country, agreed to a "Super Soldier Serum" injection. The substance made him a paragon of physical perfection, armed only with his shield, his strength, his smarts and a command of martial arts.

 

In the comic-book universe, death is not always final. But even if Captain America turns out to have met his end in print, he may not disappear entirely: Marvel has said it is developing a Captain America movie.

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It's going to be Knightfall all over again. The Punisher'll take over for a while, proving that his methods are totally incompatible with the image/myth of Captain America. Bucky'll probably take on the costume for a while after that, trying to redeem himself/live up to Cap's legacy. Then Steve Rogers will make his spectacular return (probably in some big twist involving the re-appearance of Nick Fury, who's been missing behind the scenes for a while now), re-affirming how relevant and necessary the 'real' Captain America is for contemporary (Marvel) America.

 

Watch and see. If more than a few minor details of the above prediction turn out to be wrong, I'll be flatly astonished.

 

******

 

It's a fucking retarded idea, of course, and smacks of editorial meddling to a ludicrous degree (also: if they were actually determined to do this, why the fuck wasn't it used as the dramatic finale of Civil War, instead of the damp squib Millar actually wrote?), but I've got enough confidence in Brubaker - who, while some of his recent work hasn't done much for me, has barely put a foot wrong since taking over Captain America - that the part of the story being told in his book, at least, will be well-crafted and interesting. Of course, all the other Marvel books dealing with the situation will suck noodles, but that'd be true whether Captain America was dead or alive.

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(also: if they were actually determined to do this, why the fuck wasn't it used as the dramatic finale of Civil War, instead of the damp squib Millar actually wrote?)

 

Too right, that would have made Civil War actually worth keeping.

 

I'm pissed that they killed Cap, not because they killed him, but because (as Mark has stated) we can look forward to the same crap we had to endure with the death of Superman, Punisher's suicide run and Batman's back being broken.

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Yeah - for all it's many, many, many crippling flaws, at least Civil War sucked in new, innovative ways. I don't think any comic series had ever sucked in quite the same way as Civil War before. This, on the other hand - not only is it retarded, it's a second-hand retread of a story which has been told - badly, for the most part - any number of times before. WILL THEY NEVER LEARN?!?!?

 

Or something.

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