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St. Finn Parish

Screw the Big Two

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So I was inspired by the thread on the end of Civil Bore, and The Dork Knight Spider to start a Marvel Sucks thread. However I thought that wouldn't be entirely fair to Marvel, see I have a heart. So this is a thread for those of us who were unhappy with some stuff and it's for both the big guys Marvel and DC. What's your most hated story arcs from either. I will begin with these choice pieces of comic art gone wrong,

Spiderman-Clone_genesis.jpg

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AllStarBatmanRobinPoster.jpg

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heroesreborn1.jpg

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And not that the second Robin died but that he existed at all is the point of this one.

azrael-b.jpg

and the big one

death_of_superman.jpg

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See, I liked Jason Todd, and even voted to let him live, but i would put the "Return of Jason Todd" on this list. Let the dead stay dead, and Jason added more to Batman with his death, than he has with his Life/resurrection.

 

150px-Primepunch.PNG

On this topic, I'll put Superboy Punch and the Cop-out that was this last Crisis, which i can't remember the name of.

 

Also Green Lantern Rebirth: and the reveal that Parallax was a Yellow Fear Cricket or something

green_lantern_rebirth3.jpg

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Let me add to my original list with these beauties,

zero1med.jpg

carnage.jpg

For Carnage again it's the character all together that blows goats!

batman497.jpg

Notice the writer ie. this rant.

I.M.H.O. Marvel has always had a problem being more concerned about their visual style and less about their writing and storylines.I mean let's look at the evidence; here are some of their writers Jim Starlin, Scott Lobdell, Doug Moench, and the list of crappy second rate writers goes on. However look at their choices of Artist, Jack Kirby, Todd McFarlane, Jim Lee, Tim Sale, and the list of excellent artist goes on.

Also these,

armageddon2001.jpg

Punishervol3-1.JPG

oh and

Onslaught.jpg

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I have yet to forgive DC for cancelling The Minx, Outlaw Nation, The Crusades and The Witching.

(And I suspect in all likelihood I won't ever, though I may forget these four particular sins as time progresses.)

Can't think of anything Marvel (that I've actually bothered to read, anyway) that seemed equally objectionable, but their own Witches series was a bit of a pup and I'm glad that one only lasted four issues (it read more like a oneshot padded in any case.)

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The Punisher: Suicide Run was so bad I stopped reading comics for a while

 

Also Venom: Lethal Protector. The very idea is absurd.

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The NEW Thor story-line written by Tom DeFalco, where the old Thor is sent into exile by Odin for killing Loki and some construction worker becomes Thor.

 

The story-line where D.D. got a new secret identity and started to wear armour.

 

The teen Tony Stark story-line during the end days of the original Iron Man series.

 

Heroes' Reborn.

 

The Spider-Clone Saga.

 

The NEW Batman story-line, after Batman got his back broken.

 

The death of Superman....Don't really care that he died....do care that they just replaced him with 4 even more annoying characters and then brought the original back to life a few months later.

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Allow me to correct my previous post. The pic that has not, as of yet, fixed itself miracoulesly is the cover for this vomit enducing issue of Batman.

2ag6xs1.jpg

Notice that the writer of this turd was good ole Doug Moench, which would probably be why I hate him. He, Gerry Conway, and Judd Winick all share the distinguished honor of coming up with three of the biggest mistakes in the history of the Batman franchise.

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How could we forget the big daddy of shitty crossovers?

 

dc_versus_marvel_marvel_versus_dc.jpg

 

I thought that book was like Cotton Candy, fun, unfilling and bad for you, but ultimately satisfying somehow.

 

He, Gerry Conway, and Judd Winick all share the distinguished honor of coming up with three of the biggest mistakes in the history of the Batman franchise.

 

While i think i know, i'd like to hear you say what these are...

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Notice that the writer of this turd was good ole Doug Moench, which would probably be why I hate him.

Careful, Moench created Moon Knight and Tony B. loves him some Moon Knight!

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True true, but Tony B. dislikes him some Moench Batman.

Didn't he write a lot of early '80s Batman stuff, you know, introducing Arkham Asylum and suchlike?

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Lots of Moench's late-80s/early-90s Batman was fine - not high art, but perfectly solid superhero stuff. It largely suffers, for me, from having been inescapably caught up in editorially-mandated bullshit like Knightfall (for which I really don't think it's fair to solely blame the writers or artists of the time, who didn't have a lot of say in the matter), or for coming at the same time as Grant/Breyfogle's utterly fabulous Detective Comics run, which was a lot better. What I've seen of his later work with Kelley Jones wasn't half bad either, when it wasn't being fucked-about by ever-more-intrusive crossover bullshit. He's no Grant Morrison, but he's hardly Chuck Austen, either.

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Lots of Moench's late-80s/early-90s Batman was fine - not high art, but perfectly solid superhero stuff. It largely suffers, for me, from having been inescapably caught up in editorially-mandated bullshit like Knightfall (for which I really don't think it's fair to solely blame the writers or artists of the time, who didn't have a lot of say in the matter), or for coming at the same time as Grant/Breyfogle's utterly fabulous Detective Comics run, which was a lot better.

It largely suffers, for me, from bad dialogue and poor storytelling.

 

What I've seen of his later work with Kelley Jones wasn't half bad either, ...

Freudian slip? :biggrin:

 

He's no Grant Morrison, but he's hardly Chuck Austen, either.

Well, fair enough.

 

 

I.M.H.O. Marvel has always had a problem being more concerned about their visual style and less about their writing and storylines.I mean let's look at the evidence; here are some of their writers Jim Starlin, Scott Lobdell, Doug Moench, and the list of crappy second rate writers goes on. However look at their choices of Artist, Jack Kirby, Todd McFarlane, Jim Lee, Tim Sale, and the list of excellent artist goes on.

Couldn't you also name three excellent Marvel writers, and three (or indeed a dozen) crappy second rate artists?

 

For example: Grant Morrison, Peter David, Brian M Bendis; Ron Lim, Mark Bagley, Rob Li*f*ld.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. :)

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How could we forget the big daddy of shitty crossovers?

 

dc_versus_marvel_marvel_versus_dc.jpg

 

I thought that book was like Cotton Candy, fun, unfilling and bad for you, but ultimately satisfying somehow.

 

He, Gerry Conway, and Judd Winick all share the distinguished honor of coming up with three of the biggest mistakes in the history of the Batman franchise.

 

While i think i know, i'd like to hear you say what these are...

 

1. Knightfall, Knightquest, Knightsend

2. We-Todd-Ed Robin

3. Return of the We-Todd

 

On the subject of the DC Vs. Marvel train wreck how about this one.

amalgamd1.jpg

Although I will say not all of the ideas that came out of Amalgam were bad just most of them.

Bruce-Wayne-Agent-Shield-001.jpg

I thought this one was pretty ballin but of course it is Chuck Dixon.

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Couldn't you also name three excellent Marvel writers, and three (or indeed a dozen) crappy second rate artists?

 

For example: Grant Morrison, Peter David, Brian M Bendis; Ron Lim, Mark Bagley, Rob Li*f*ld.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, mind you. :)

Okay Frank Miller, Jim Steranko, and Kurt Busiek. For Artists I take, and the first is a personal taste thing John Romita Jr., Marc Silvestri, and I really am having a hard time thinking of another crappy artist so I'll just rip one of yours and say Rob Leftfield.

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I haven't read any of the original Moench Batman work, so I can't comment on that. I've only read the shitty second run of Moench on Batman.

I absolutely hate Doug Moench and rank him down there with Austin, BUT I did recently read the Essential Moon Knight book, and while it was very derivative of Batman, I enjoyed that.

So, Moench has written one book that I didn't hate.

 

I'm also wondering what is this Gerry Conway Batman-story that nearly ruined the character? I didn't know Conway even wrote Batman.

I didn't read any Conway stories after the 1970s, but Conway was one of my favourite 1970s comic book writers.

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For Artists I take, and the first is a personal taste thing John Romita Jr., Marc Silvestri, and I really am having a hard time thinking of another crappy artist so I'll just rip one of yours and say Rob Leftfield.

You think John Romita Jr is a crappy artist, Finn? I'll drink to that. He draws a great Spider-Man, but can't draw the human face. :huh: I know which skill I think is more important. But apparently Marvel editors (and lots of fanboys) disagree with me.

 

So you like Jim Lee's work, but not Marc Silvestri's? What's the difference? ;)

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I've decried Romita Jr.'s art many a time on this site, but I always seemed to be the lone voice. Hmph!

His art always really bothers me.

All the people always look really hirsute....

The first time you see his art, it looks different and so you sort of enjoy it, but then that style keeps popping up in book after book, always the exact same style, and it really gets under your skin. You just get annoyed by his art.

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I've decried Romita Jr.'s art many a time on this site, but I always seemed to be the lone voice. Hmph!

His art always really bothers me.

All the people always look really hirsute....

The first time you see his art, it looks different and so you sort of enjoy it, but then that style keeps popping up in book after book, always the exact same style, and it really gets under your skin. You just get annoyed by his art.

 

No, you just get annoyed by his art. :) I still think he's fantastic, although I can see why his work's not to everyone's tastes.

 

He's not the sort of artist whose appeal can be neatly summed up via a few single images (while I like the 'look' of his work, it's not obviously stunning in the way that, for example, JH Williams can be) but when it comes to page layout, panel composition, sequential storytelling, choreography and the like - the really important stuff, in other words - he's one of the best in the business. He's one of relatively few artists whose work I'd almost always be happy to pick up, no matter who's writing the book (even I gave up on his run on Amazing Spider-Man with Straszynszyskszykki, mind).

 

I really do wish he'd do some non-Marvel work, though. He's well-suited to their universe, on the whole (unlike a lot of my favourite artists, I'd be perfectly happy to see him remain on largely mainstream superhero franchises for the rest of his career - sure, it's a limited/limiting genre, but it's one to which he's extremely well-suited), but I'd love to see what he could do with Batman. His work on the Chuck Dixon(*spit*)-scripted Batman/Punisher story was superb, but it barely whetted my appetite. Just think what he could achieve in collaboration with a really great writer...

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I was just going to mention the Bats/Big Pun split as an example of excellent JRJr. work not entirely in the Marvel Universe.

 

Count me in as a big fan of both the Romitas.

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