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I did think that my "more adult etc" accomadated any "pseudo's", rather than actually saying that the film itself was infact dark or deep etc.

 

Simply put (The cheek after my messy massive post above), as flawed as both cuts of Daredevil still are, there were a handful of sequences that were poignant enoughto make the film far more compelling to me, my special ladyfriend and numerous non comic reading friends than any of the Spiderman films.

 

Thrers no doubt that Sam Raimi given the exact same script, cast, budget etc would have doen a better job.

But it's in the material itself, somewhere.

 

I completely support your comments on the preferably lighter context for superheroes.

But thats in the comic mediuim though, where the darker side has been fully (And as you say too fully) explored.

Filmwise however, the darker superhero genre is only really representated by Batman Begins and I suppose Sin City

And I'll mantain that the flawed Daredevil still has more substance then Sin City.

 

Too most people Superhero comics are, have always been and will always be light entertainment.

 

This is what really irked me about Ang Lee's Hulk movie. (Especially after a detailed second viewing and having sat through the Director's commentary).

Intellectually it's all there, often trumping the comic personally.

It had the capabilty of delivering the real adult Superhero comic.

 

At one point Ang Lee mention that the script was conceived or contrived around an ancient Hebrew saying that goes "the Desert is where memory is buried".

I mean that superbly ties the film together (Hulk base being buried under the desert alongside his Hometown, the repressed memories etc.

There's a hell of lot that they got right and better than the comic book (From the Hulk's childlike proportions, the shedding of water or some other fluid during his Dehulking, General Ross etc) but it was thoroughly unentertaining and ultimately uncompelling.

I think that this example makes a good counterpoint to my Daredevil tirade.

As one would assume that I would suport the film for it's intellectual approach.

 

Hopefully the Iron Man film can accomadate both or our arguments, it definitely has the potential to.

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Wasn't DareDevil a big departure, though? With the killing and so on?

No Matts a killer or has been.

Obviously the comics are far more nuanced and subtle.

 

Frank Miller's retelling of Matt's origin (The Man With out Fear mini) includes a few deaths.

At one point a 12 year old Matt in self defence accidenatlly pushes a prostitute out of the window to her death (Joe Kelly attempted a retcon, but I think this still stands).

Later after numerous warnings, an older matt (Still not in costume yet) deflects a bullet right back to it's owner, killing him.

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Wasn't DareDevil a big departure, though? With the killing and so on?

No Matts a killer or has been.

 

Not the way he is in the film, he isn't. Not even close.

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Wasn't DareDevil a big departure, though? With the killing and so on?

No Matts a killer or has been.

Not the way he is in the film, he isn't. Not even close.

Not the same, becuase the film is far more primary and agin unsubtle etc.

 

He does however often go loco in the comics.

Perhaps similarly, the Daredevil of the film is shown in some endless phase of depression.

 

Comic wise, forcing a paralised Bullseye to play Russian roulette tops anything in the film.

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It's a terrible idea to judge a Spider-Man film on how "adult" it is. Spider-Man movies should be kinetic and bright and kind of goofy, with a little bit of darkness to provide some contrast. Spidey doesn't suit overly "adult" or "dark" themes at all, at least not without a good deal of levity along the way.

 

Frankly, you'll only get one shot per decade with any of these superheroes (Hulk being a very rare exception) so there's not much point wasting that shot trying to warp the character to fit a mould that wasn't made for him. That way lies badness (ie. Superman Returns).

 

And why are you so desperate for an "adult" superhero movie anyway? Are you trying to justify the genre? Because it's a genre that, frankly, cannot be justified. Superhero stories are just big adolescent power trips for children and retards (and, of course, adults who want to turn their brains off for a while). That's what makes them so awesome.

 

"Dark" or "adult" superhero comics work because they're subverting, ignoring or contradicting genre conventions. But that doesn't stop the genre itself from being really, really dumb.

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I honestly think that Superhero stories have the ability to serve as as Modern day mythology.

 

Ofcourse I want to entertained too, but one can do both.

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I honestly think that Superhero stories have the ability to serve as as Modern day mythology.

 

Agreed, but I think they generally do so rather better without the po-faced "seriousness" of films like Daredevil or (to a lesser, but still film-crippling, extent) Superman Returns. Batman Begins may be "dark" in places, but it, crucially, retains a sense of humour and lightness of touch to balance that out (I still think that the twinkle in Bale's eye when he asks "does it come in black" is, in a small way, one of the highlights of the film). Daredevil doesn't even try, and consequently collapses under the weight of its own self-importance.

 

If we're talking in terms of modern mythology, you have to go a long way to beat Superman: The Movie, a film which resonates on a fundamental, archetypal level which no subsequent superhero film has matched (only Spider-Man 2 and Batman Begins have come close, for my money). That takes pretty much the polar opposite approach to the one you seem to be advocating, and is a far stronger film for doing so.

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I honestly think that Superhero stories have the ability to serve as as Modern day mythology.

 

Agreed, but I think they generally do so rather better without the po-faced "seriousness" of films like Daredevil or (to a lesser, but still film-crippling, extent) Superman Returns. Batman Begins may be "dark" in places, but it, crucially, retains a sense of humour and lightness of touch to balance that out (I still think that the twinkle in Bale's eye when he asks "does it come in black" is, in a small way, one of the highlights of the film). Daredevil doesn't even try, and consequently collapses under the weight of its own self-importance.

Agreed.

Personally Spiderman was too far to the one side and the flawed Daredevil was too far to the other.

Although I think that Batman Begins still pales to Year One, it's the best example of an adult Superhero comicbook movie.

 

Adult and Dark aren't synonomous.

Spiderman doesn't have to be dark, but I would have preferred some complexity.

I just fealt that the films were more childish then most of the monthly titles themselves.

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fuckin hell, SPider, I may as well be looking at fuzzy footage of a yeti or sasquatch or something.

 

:tongue:

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Guest spiderlegs

There's one good scene of it, though, in the lower left hand corner about 45 seconds or so into it.

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Ah, but you're missing the fine subtlety, Assassin.

You see, he's super-rich so he can't relate to other people, but he ended up with an injured heart (see the symbolism? He's flawed!), so he pretends to be his bodyguard...a working class joe in a cool suit who risks his life to save others....see the symbolism of the suit of iron?

You see, it's far more complex than a guy in a bright suit goes around blowing things up!

 

Actually, I just want to see cool explosions in an Iron Man movie. The thought doesn't entice me with just about any other character or movie, but with an Iron Man movie, I think I could be sold on neat special effects.

Additionlly, it was also a decent-ish metaphor for all his empty womanising too.

Only Daredevil's love life is worse.

 

Iron Man is the Marvel title that really needed it's own Frank Miller, Peter David or Claremont.

Someone to really unlock all it's potential and define it.

Kurt Buseik came the closest.

 

Hopefully the film will achieve this and externally shape the comic itself.

 

Actually, Denny O'Neil did that with Iron Man in the 1980s. Tony Stark turned to alcoholism, lost his company, went bankrupt, ended up on the street, and a corrupt rival businessman took over Stark's company, making it into a weapon's manufacturer again. James Rhodes took over the role of Iron Man.

Tony had to prove what a true hero is by fighting his way up from nothing. He ended up becoming a business partner of a small computer technology firm started up by two of his former employees.

You're excused for knowing nothing about this as Marvel never bothered to Trade any of it.

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Ah, but you're missing the fine subtlety, Assassin.

You see, he's super-rich so he can't relate to other people, but he ended up with an injured heart (see the symbolism? He's flawed!), so he pretends to be his bodyguard...a working class joe in a cool suit who risks his life to save others....see the symbolism of the suit of iron?

You see, it's far more complex than a guy in a bright suit goes around blowing things up!

 

Actually, I just want to see cool explosions in an Iron Man movie. The thought doesn't entice me with just about any other character or movie, but with an Iron Man movie, I think I could be sold on neat special effects.

Additionlly, it was also a decent-ish metaphor for all his empty womanising too.

Only Daredevil's love life is worse.

 

Iron Man is the Marvel title that really needed it's own Frank Miller, Peter David or Claremont.

Someone to really unlock all it's potential and define it.

Kurt Buseik came the closest.

 

Hopefully the film will achieve this and externally shape the comic itself.

 

Actually, Denny O'Neil did that with Iron Man in the 1980s. Tony Stark turned to alcoholism, lost his company, went bankrupt, ended up on the street, and a corrupt rival businessman took over Stark's company, making it into a weapon's manufacturer again. James Rhodes took over the role of Iron Man.

Tony had to prove what a true hero is by fighting his way up from nothing. He ended up becoming a business partner of a small computer technology firm started up by two of his former employees.

You're excused for knowing nothing about this as Marvel never bothered to Trade any of it.

Hey at one point I owned every Iron Man from #80 or so up!

 

That run was grand but it still in my opinion somehow didn't really shape the title or the perception of the title.

You're probably right though.

They did trade Demon in the Bottle I believe.

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It was more a matter of what O'Neil did on the title being ignored by other writers, other than the alcoholism aspect of Tony Stark.

The same thing really applied to Walt Simonson's Thor though.

But, yeah, for whatever reason, while certain writers like Simonson on Thor, Miller on DD, or Byrne on FF are thought of as the definitive take on that character, O'Neil's run on Iron Man isn't thought of in the same way by most fans.

 

Demon in a Bottle was David Michilline, pre-Denny O'Neil. That was just setting up the idea that Tony Stark was an alcoholic for the first time. I didn't think Demon in a Bottle was that great.

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Demon in a Bottle was David Michilline, pre-Denny O'Neil. That was just setting up the idea that Tony Stark was an alcoholic for the first time.

My Bad!

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Iron Man trailer now up. Still don't really care about the superhero side of things, but Robert Downey Jr is awesome.

 

http://www.apple.com/trailers/paramount/ir...ge_trailer.html

 

 

I can relate to that - I loved everything about Star Wars apart from all the fucking spaceships. ;)

 

Naah, this looks fantastic - never read much Iron Man, but from what I have seen, Downey ranks up there with Christopher Reeve and Christian Bale in the "absolutely note-perfect superhero casting" stakes. Brilliant (if entirely predictable) use of music, too.

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