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JasonT

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What's the issue with Marvels, Christian?

(And the Gwen Stacey story, come to that?)

 

Is the clone saga in the top twenty?

:laugh:

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Are you asking what my issue is with Marvels?

Just that I think there were a lot of better stories that should be ranked higher on the list. I would easily rank it in the top 75 Marvel comics, but I'm not sure I'd rank it in the top 10. It deserved a spot in the top 10 more than some of the ones that made it to the top 10.

 

As far as "The Death of Gwen Stacy", I'm a bigger fan of Gerry Conway's run on Spider Man than most, and I do think it's a good story...but #1? Is that really the best story that Marvel ever published? Better than perhaps the most perfectly paced comic book story ever written with Daredevil: Born Again? Hardly.

I would rank "The Death of Gwen Stacy" in the top 75 also, but I wouldn't put it in the top 10. Everyone just thinks so fondly of it because of how hard Marvel has tried to push it as a masterpiece over the years.

At the time, I get the feeling it was more of a disliked story by fans than an instanst classic. Sure, most of the fans were just upset about the status quo of Spidey changing....

 

Let's see...The Clone Saga? It's at #65. It made the list! To be fair, Ennis' Marvel Knights:Punisher did beat the Clone Saga by one spot.

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How about Omega: The Unknown? I take it Void Indigo won't be in there...

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Oh man, Ennis' marvel Knights was not even good. I mean, it was OK, but Jason Aaron's MAX run was way better.

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Yeah, Omega the Unknown is nowhere to be found, obviously. That deserves to be top 10, without a doubt. No lower than #12.

I doubt a two issue series, that was immediately canceled, and is forgotten about today, like Void Indigo is anywhere near consideration. It was creator-owned anyway. This list is solely for comics involving the Marvel Universe.

Gerber didn't get one book in the top 75....shameful.

 

Lou-Yeah, but considering some of the books that made the list, having Marvel Knights:Punisher at #64 isn't the most terrible thing. Now, leaving off any Punisher books from the MAX run, on the other hand....

Yeah, I don't know how MK Punisher can make the list, while a series like Born or anything from the MAX series is left off.

The first appearance of the Punisher (Amazing Spider Man #129) did make the list.

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I would think Simonson's Thor would be rather high....right?

The Heroes Return thing?

Death of Captain America?

The Return of Captain America?

Annihilation? Or any of the kick ass DnA cosmic stuff.

Darkhawk?

That time Aunt May become herald to Galactus?

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I would think Simonson's Thor would be rather high....right?

 

 

Oh yeah! Where is that on the list CC? Should be top 10 for sure in my opinion

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It's not top ten, which is puzzling.

Min you, neither's Peter David's Hulk or Frank Miller's Daredevil.

The only GOG listed (low fifties?) will probably be Bendis pissing all over Abnett and Lanning's work rather than either of the runs that are any good as well...

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Peter David's Hulk did not make the list.

 

Frank Miller's DD run proper made the list for "The Death of Elektra"...they like their death story-arcs at Marvel, I guess! It's in spot #19. If that includes the final Miller issue, where he plays Russian roulette with Bullseye in the hospital, that's ok, because that issue is the absolute best.

Also, "Daredevil:The Man Without Fear" made the list (at #70), so Miller's DD got a few spots on the list.

 

Simonson's Thor makes the list twice...once for the first appearance of Beta Ray Bill (#31), and once as a more general spot (#66).

 

Annihilation did also make the list. At #16. That's it from Abnett and Lanning.

 

Yep, Death of Cap is at #39.

 

Another glaring omission from the list is Alan Moore's Captain Britain. That's a top five story for me.

 

It's weird how the list is so general and also so non-specific. Like, a certain story-arc from a run will make the list, then later you'll see Chris Claremont's entire run on New Mutants on the list.

 

You want crappy Bendis comics? You get House of M at #26, Avengers Disassembled at #53...Enjoy! I'm surprised there isn't a lot more Bendis on the list too.

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Another glaring omission from the list is Alan Moore's Captain Britain. That's a top five story for me.

 

 

 

I am starting to dislike this book.

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There was one nice moment in House Of M, but that was over in a page (Peter waking up in bed with Gwen after everything had been changed).

Mind you, even the Clone Saga fuck-the-readers-fest had Aunt May's death scene raising the tone a little, so that isn't really saying much.

 

If the Hulk isn't there, I take it Peter David's Captain Marvel won't be either. (The Jim Starlin might be in the bottom twenty somewhere, I suppose.)

 

Maybe Captain Britain is disallowed as it first appeared in a Marvel UK weekly? (No point even asking if Nightraven or the Mills/Gibbons Tom Baker Doctor Who strips are there, I suppose.)

 

They've seriously put Born Again over Man Without Fear and Miller's run proper? Twats. VD ridden, oozing, scabbed twats, at that...

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I find Born Again superior to Miller's other DD work. I rank Born Again and Dark Knight Returns as Frank Miller's best comic work, although like I said, the Russian roulette issue was just perfect.

 

Moore's Captain Britain is part of mainstream Marvel continuity though, so it shouldn't be excluded, I wouldn't think. I honestly like Moore's Captain Britain run more than Miracleman.

Alan Davis' Excalibur is another omission, come to think of it.

 

No, David's Captain Marvel was not on the list.

His original run on X-Factor made the list, towards the bottom.

Starlin's Captain Marvel did make the list, right below his Warlock, at #25.

 

Yeah, Amazing Spider Man #400, in the middle of the Clone mess, was a gem of an issue.

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Marve's December releases. CROSS-OVERS!!! EVENTS! Excitement! Things! There's an Avengers team lead by...Dr. Doom?!?!

Angela debuts. SHIELD gets a comic. It sounds like Spider-Gwen (a parrallel Gwen Stacey as Spider-Woman) might be more interesting than the main Spidey. The new Miracleman comes out. Carol Danvers celebrates 100 issues (yes, that's counting all her solo books). Powers relaunches in prep for the TV show. A Warlock masterworks edition!

 

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=55554

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More Hawkeye, anyways (TPB that is)

 

And like a Jason Aaron ark I am going to try Thor #1. Don't fuck this up, the slightest whiff of fucking up and I am gone.

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Another excellent Aaron issue of Thor (#25). Epic stories. Simon Bisley on art. I'm not the biggest Bisely fan, like I didn't like him on HB, but I do love seeing him on titles like Slaine or Thor.

You can tell this new direction is an obvious editorial edict. I don't understand why either. Were Thor's sales doing that bad? I seriously doubt it. For the final issue of this Thor, there was nothing to explain why Thor is going to be a woman. On the plus side, the old Thor is stull going to be around...he's not dying or going in to exile.

Back to my point, Aaron shows up-coming plots, and it looks like he's just going ahead with his earlier plans, and the stories will just feature a female Thor now.

To address Lou, it looks like Aaron is still knowing where he's going, because the hints of up-coming stories look like ones I want to see in the Thor comic book, as a long-time Thor fan.

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I was very skeptical, CC, but his final column there sold me. We will still see Necro Galactus, and all of those things Aaron had planned. Just with a different Thor. And that's cool, but you know he'll be back cause of King Thor. Oh look, a new #1. Maybe they will have another #1 in 24 issues when he goes back to male Thor. Really, this could all be done in the regular series. Has superman Red and Blue written all over it, but way more fun. I'm in.

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Loki #6-Loki is back (after playing with Angela), and perhaps better than ever. At least with this incarnation of the series, not really better than the Gillen series. Al Ewing continues to impress.

This issue is really more of a Dr. Doom story though, but it's one of the better Dr. Doom stories. Dr. Doom is a character who can really bore me, he's been terribly over-used, but Dr. Doom can often be an incredibly interesting character. One of the better villains in comics, perhaps only behind Magneto, as far as Marvel anyway. It's just that he's usually used wrong (well, Magneto isn't often used right either, not after Claremont). "I am Doom! I am better than everyone! I will conquer the world! Don't ever talk back to Doom!". So cliche and dull.

Dr. Doom is interesting when you get down to the flesh of the character, that Dr. Doom is an interesting villain because Dr. Doom always believes he is right. He's not a totally evil psycho. He's not the Red Skull. Ewing gets that.

But, what makes this story so interesitng is that it touches on the other side of Dr. Doom, that he's also a being of magic, not just materialism. That's often downplayed. It's rarely been used to good effect in stories using the character. In this story, Ewing looks at the nature of the concept of magic, what do we mean by magic? How does magic apply when you are fighting a deity? In this sense, Ewing is going back to Gillen's take on the series, as Gillen's work often had metaphysical overtones.

This was just a genius story that did everything right.

And, yes, Loki is playing the role of the trickster. Dr. Doom seems to have outsmarted Loki, and defeated him in a way no other Marvel character has done (on the symbolic level, no less), but is it reality?

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I really liked the preview I saw. But isn't all tied in with AXIS? That put me off. But Loki playing off DOOM! sounds like a lot of fun.

That's what I love about Dr. Doom and Magneto, they are both bad guys, to be sure. But they have reasons for what they do and sometimes those reasons are justified and they end up standing with good guys, however briefly. Red Skull, or Thanos, etc are alright for that HUGE NASTY ALL POWERFUL EVIL, it's just not as interesting.

 

Damn...now I'm thinking of when Doom was part of the Future Foundation, all in white. It worked so well. I want re-read the whole Hickman saga of FF. Then he was back to being more traditionally bad. That's a good character. Also, good writing by Hickman and Fraction.

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It does have the March to Axis banner on the issue. I'm not sure how that much means. There's a sub-plot in the background, which looks like while Doom is concerned with Loki, Red Skull is slowly taking over Latveria. It'll probably lead to something to do with Axis, but at this point, the Loki and Dr. Doom battle may be self-contained.

 

I do like Thanos too, as he can be more complex. Starlin got a lot of mileage out of him. He hates everything and wants everything to die, but at heart, there's a part of him that just wants to be killed, so the idea is that he sets himself up to fail. He's had all these chances where he's became as powerful as a god, but he's always defeated by some superhero. The idea isn't that it's a bad story, or simply that a mortal can defeat a god-like being who could end existence, but the idea that Starlin introduced is that Thanos really wants to be defeated, because it's secretly just hatred of himself and wanting to die that drives him, so he always leaves a way open for him to be beaten.

He can never accomplish his goal, because of his own self-hatred, and his sole goal is to please Death. He doesn't want to do any of the petty super-villain things, like conquer a city. He wants to end life. That's his sole goal. And, he's destined to fail time after time, because its his own death he craves, but can't admit to his self-loathing.

He dies and feels he's not worthy of Death's love, so he fights to live again...only to face the same feelings of hatred.

I like ideas like that, personally.

 

Thanos has been getting badly over-used though. He used to be a character who only showed up for a big story-line once in a while, and would stay dead in between appearances. Now, he's being used all over Marvel. It cheapens him.

He's one character whose return from death makes sense, at least, although some would argue that he probably should have not come back after the Warlock/Infinity Gem story-line in the '70s.

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That's great to here!

Admitedly, I am kind of excited to see Magneto fuck up the Red Skull. He will not stand for one once of his racist, genocidal nonsense.

 

Yeah, maybe I have T.F.S. Thanos Fatigue Syndrome. It affects 3 out of 5 Marvel comic fans. He was fantastically evil and dangerous in the Infinity Gaunlet. After that.....not so much.

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But, Red Skull has the power of Professor X's brain, so it won't be so easy for Magneto.

 

I hated the Acts of Vengeance cross-over, from like 1990, but I loved the Captain America issues because Magneto fucked up Red Skull. That was great.

Magneto revealed he was cooperating with the super-villains just to get close to Red Skull.

You should try to find those issues of Cap. Gruenwald was the writer.

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I don't know. I don't think it's that bad of an idea. Professor X is dead, and Red Skull cut the brain from his corpse. Now, Red Skull is able to use Professor X's brain. It's sort of a twisted and crazy idea that I think can work fine in a comic book.

We'll just have to see how Remender follows up on the plot.

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