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A. Heathen

Hellblazer #287 poll

How would you rate the latest issue?  

7 members have voted

  1. 1. Slinker's simple 5 point scale (why waste 10s)

    • I did not read this issue
      1
    • It was very very bad
      1
    • It was poor
      3
    • It was average
      1
    • It was good
      1
    • It was excellent
      0


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Here's a thing. People often talk about Andy Diggle's run in negative terms, and yet he consistently scored higher in our ratings than Milligan throughout his run.

Perhaps because he did not annoy so many people.

 

He averaged 7.8 across his run, the same as Mike Carey across his last 17 issues - although Carey finished stronger and certainly had some high scores before #200.

Denise Mina averages 6.5 with consistently low scores, and Milligan has fewer people around to vote and is still getting low scores.

6888456879_88998059f4_o.jpg

 

Sure there are other reasons for the numbers, but Carey had around 40 people voting per issue, Diggle still had 20 going into Milligan's run but for the past two years it's only been a dozen (except for an influx of nerds on issue #275.

Sad times.

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I didn't find Diggle's run too much different than Carey's.

Carey's run was certainly better, but then Carey's run also wasn't a retread.

It was sort of just a repeat of what we'd just seen...only now with even more harping on minute continuity. "More of the same" is a good way to describe Diggle's run.

The writing was fine. The characterization was good.

It just didn't go anywhere interesting and spent too much time re-using ideas that had already been long put away.

Overall, Diggle's run did not work, but there was nothing outright bad to be found in it. It was pretty average and uninspired.

In fact, I just have very few memories of Diggle's run, period.

I'm afraid that I'll have many memories of Milligan's run when it's all over....

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Here's a thing. People often talk about Andy Diggle's run in negative terms, and yet he consistently scored higher in our ratings than Milligan throughout his run.

Perhaps because he did not annoy so many people.

I put it to you, sir, that the negativity about Andy's run only really began when the run wrapped up. The negativity took place almost entirely after voting closed, as it were.

 

And there was still a lot less of it than wot Pete's attracting.

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That is a true fact, JT, but the votes are all drawn in the same manner.

On reviewing those polls there are some highly thought of single & double issue stories and a couple of decent longer arcs before the quite justified disregard for the final arc. And one of the most repeated criticisms towards the end is that each arc did not really climax but dropped into the next story.

 

Hmm, how many of us have access to the older stories?

Might be interesting to conduct a retrospective read of each TPB.

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Excellent summary, Ade. My only Niggle is this: Now that we've had established voting on a 10-point scale for many years, why break the cycle and change to a non-comparable voting system? That'll just ruin the statistics.

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Sure there are other reasons for the numbers, but Carey had around 40 people voting per issue, Diggle still had 20 going into Milligan's run but for the past two years it's only been a dozen (except for an influx of nerds on issue #275.

To regurgitate what I just spat to you in e-mail about this very subject...

 

"In terms of dwindling poll participation, I'm not sure how much of that can put down to the creative team, our community is much smaller now and there's no longer an active site driving traffic to it."

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I put it to you, sir, that the negativity about Andy's run only really began when the run wrapped up. The negativity took place almost entirely after voting closed, as it were.

 

And there was still a lot less of it than wot Pete's attracting.

 

Right on both counts. Diggle's run began strong, if I remember correctly. That first story with John tied to a stake waiting for the tide to drown him was some good stuff. But the whole revisionist throw the baby off the cliff-which I liked when he wrote it, but having recently read jenkins' run, I'm retroactively put-off by Diggle's lack of Hellblazer historical perspective. But since I did enjoy it at the time, it's hard for me to disavow it now. Milligan's run has had some good stuff, but has mainly left me with a flat opinion of his run as a whole.

 

That graph, though, is extremely interesting.

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Excellent summary, Ade. My only Niggle is this: Now that we've had established voting on a 10-point scale for many years, why break the cycle and change to a non-comparable voting system? That'll just ruin the statistics.

 

I started doing that when I wasn't aware of any long term statistical analysis. that's on me. But, for statistical purposes, just double the value of each 1 - 5 and it'll pan out. I'm sure Ade already did that. But the reason I cut it to 5 was that people generally only ever made 5 different choices. There was the occasional 7 or 8, a multitude of 5s and 6s and an occasioanl 0 or 1. It just seemed to be a simple division would make each level picked more often.

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I put it to you, sir, that the negativity about Andy's run only really began when the run wrapped up. The negativity took place almost entirely after voting closed, as it were.

 

What am I, chopped liver?

 

 

I was enthused by his first few issues, but started having my doubts as early as his second story, and while there were some corking single-issue stories in there, I was pretty consistently - and, I seem to recall, reasonably vocally - negative throughout the second half of his run. I was so relieved when it was over that it took quite a long time before my feelings really started to sour on Milligan, in fact (since when I've not been posting a lot in this part of the forum, because I don't enjoy being relentlessly negative about a comic I used to really enjoy).

 

Carey was the last time I was consistently delighted by HB, and even then, there are some problems with the second half of his run. It's been a steady downward spiral since then, really, although each subsequent writer has at least started out with a cracking story or two early in their respective runs.

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Red, in an opinion poll using a likert scalea range of 1 to 5 is comparable with a scale of 1 to 10, one just doubles the scores. In many ways ten is too wide for what is a simple good - average - bad and gets skewed by things like do we think 5 is bad or average ? How willing are we to give a 10? And that person (or persons) who kept giving scores of 1 to issues that everyone else rated highly and then did not discuss why they didn't like it.

;-)

 

John, and anyone else who makes that misunderstanding about my last comment, I was not making a statement that numbers have gone down because of dissatisfaction, but that the smaller number of voters means it's less representative. Although one would expect the die hard* population of a Hellblazer forum to be more favourable, and classically the people who do not comment in surveys are the dissatisfied ones. Perhaps we are more of a pressure group than a fan forum ?

 

(* it is true, the people of this forum die hard, when offered cake or death, they favour cake by a significant majority.)

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I put it to you, sir, that the negativity about Andy's run only really began when the run wrapped up. The negativity took place almost entirely after voting closed, as it were.

 

What am I, chopped liver?

 

Obviously you are a statistical outlier, or if you will an anomaly*.

But actually, our learned colleague did allow for yourself with the term "almost".

 

On reflection, and remembering a comment from someone who used to post here, perhaps the positive people all all leave here and go to the Elysian Fields of the official forum "OMG I AM ABSOLUTELY LOVING <insert current creative person>'S WORK ON THE BASTARD CONSTANTINE !"

 

 

(*I am sure you realise this was a joke on my part, there is nothing anomalous about you in our blizzard of snowflakes.)

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Hmm, how many of us have access to the older stories?

Might be interesting to conduct a retrospective read of each TPB.

 

I never go through the back-issues anymore.

I used to re-read the Delano, Ennis, and portions of Jenkins on a regular basis.

Re-reading Jenkins' run totally changed my mind. When the book was coming out monthly, I must have been too young, as I found it boring compared to Ennis. When I decided to try re-reading some of the Jenkins stories, they really caught on with me, and made Jenkins my second favourite.

I'm betting I'd be surprised if I picked up an Ennis issue today, that I'd find it a very different read than I found the books during my 20s. I don't see Ennis really holding up that well, but I'm not sure.

I'm just so down on the book from month-to-month, and have been for years now, that I can't imagine actually re-reading anything after Jenkins.

I mean, I could barely finish some of the issues towards the end of Diggle's run (when the African guy with the filed teeth started showing up...), some of the Mina stuff, and now most of Milligan's run. I just can't find any interest in picking up a HB story to read again right now.

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I am reading Jenkins run now. Not the whole thing but most of it. Will probably start Last Man Standing tonight when we get home.

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Sure there are other reasons for the numbers, but Carey had around 40 people voting per issue, Diggle still had 20 going into Milligan's run but for the past two years it's only been a dozen (except for an influx of nerds on issue #275.

To regurgitate what I just spat to you in e-mail about this very subject...

 

"In terms of dwindling poll participation, I'm not sure how much of that can put down to the creative team, our community is much smaller now and there's no longer an active site driving traffic to it."

 

And Carey had the advantage of the Constantine movie, which did spark a lot of interest in the comic and brought traffic to the forums (also, Carey was in the habit of plugging the site, which helped, I'm sure). But yeah, the series has been on a downward trend since Ennis, hasn't it, with a bit of a top-up around Azzarello? That's going to factor in as well.

 

Plus, you know, once a forum starts shedding members it's hard to stop or reverse the process; the less active a forum is, and the fewer voices are being heard, the less interesting it is to passers-by. Especially when those voices are mostly moaning about how shit the comic is.*

 

But I don't think you can discredit the comic itself completely. What I gather from a few other forums is that people buy Hellblazer as a second or third-tier comic, so not generally one they want to discuss. But if the stories really were astoundingly gripping and entertaining, I'm sure that would translate to increased discussion on the forums...

 

 

 

* Because it is shit.

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Obviously you are a statistical outlier, or if you will an anomaly*.

But actually, our learned colleague did allow for yourself with the term "almost". ...

I allowed for myself, as well, having moaned about Andy's splash-panel-rich pamphlets for months before dropping the title during 'Joyride.'

 

What am I, chopped liver?

Yes. :tongue:

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Really, for the most part, a forum dedicated to one subject, like a Hellblazer fan site, is going to attract the hardcore JC fans.

So, you're going to see fans who are mich more critical of the book than otherwise.

The most passionate fans are the ones most likely to dissect a book.

The casual fans are either going to read the book monthly because they love it, or drop the book when it loses their interest.

You won't see casual fans hanging on month to month, even though the book annoys them. Thereby, you also won't see them hanging out at forums devoted to that book and bitching about how the book has gone downhill.

Fan sites will tend to end up more negative than positive, in the long term, or so I believe.

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