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A. Heathen

Hellblazer #291

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  1. 1. How was it for you?

    • 1 - Satan's shit-stained underwear
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    • 10 - Blue Moon Winter Abbey Ale
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    • I did not BUY this comic


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Justice League Daft

 

Heh heh heh... :laugh:

 

maybe they get Keanu for the walk off and make it a fittingly unstable and confusing anticlimax, cementing it in that neither hollywood nor Vertigo's remaining stable of writers (minus Carey, Aaron, and any others I should happen to think of) know or can not even after so much time get a handle on the 'anti-hero,' John Constantine. Remember when Wizard designated him "best anti-hero" or somesuch?

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Minus Aaron? You do remember that Jason Aaron wrote a two-parter for Hellblazer, and it was horrible, right?

Yeah, "Best Anti-Hero"...I think that was during the Azzerello run.

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He pretty much killed that yuppie chap, didn't he?

When Chamber said "I don't remember John ever straight up murdering anyone in cold blood before" I figgered he meant before Pete wrote Hellblazer.

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He pretty much killed that yuppie chap, didn't he?

Which yuppie chap?

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The property developer fellow he gave that dubious PC app.

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He pretty much killed that yuppie chap, didn't he?

When Chamber said "I don't remember John ever straight up murdering anyone in cold blood before" I figgered he meant before Pete wrote Hellblazer.

Exactly. I don't remember any examples before that.

 

I feel nerdrage growing in my bosom.

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The Family Man still springs to mind. Maybe not completely cold blooded, but the Constantine still made a point of starting a fight he knew couldn't end until his opponent was dead.

(Also, turning loose an avatar of Kali to wreak a bit of havoc in Red Sepulchre was pretty much cold blooded murder, and I don't remember any complaints about that, either.)

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The Family Man still springs to mind. Maybe not completely cold blooded, but the Constantine still made a point of starting a fight he knew couldn't end until his opponent was dead.

 

 

Did John start that fight? Dude [ Spoiler : killed his pa! ]

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The property developer fellow he gave that dubious PC app.

 

From Milligan's run?

The guy wasn't killed! He's immortal now.

 

As far as The Family Man, you also have to take into consideration his reaction afterwards.

It's very telling comparing it with this totally random instance.

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Yes, that's the thing.

The previous Constantine-induced deaths - even Milligan's - had a certain degree of ethical responsibility on the victim and moral consideration by JC.

 

 

[Yes, I will leave the grammatical faux pas in there, see if you can spot it.]

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this totally random instance.

 

John killing a wife abuser is totally random if it doesn't form a pattern with: Gemma wearing sexy clothes but not wanting sex; and not forgiving her one-time attacker, but killing him as if part of a revenge fantasy. Of course, it could all just be coincidence.

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Minus Aaron? You do remember that Jason Aaron wrote a two-parter for Hellblazer, and it was horrible, right?

Yeah, "Best Anti-Hero"...I think that was during the Azzerello run.

 

But most everything else Aaron's written has been awesome. So he gets a pass. What else has Milligan done that didn't suck? JLD? Suck. Shade? Half-suck, half-kinda OK. What else?

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Human Target.

Enigma.

Skin.

(followed Morrison) Animal Man.

Rogan Gosh.

THE MINX. !!!

 

Probably some other marvel stuff, but who cares about that shite?

 

Not to put too fine a point on it, his past record pisses all over most comics writers, but of late less good, and of Hellblazer we best forget.

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X-Statix.

 

Milligan was one of my favourite comic writers prior to about...2005, I want to say...when he took over writing X-Men after Grant Morrison.

I even gave Milligan a pass, even though a lot of Milligan fans started to turn on him. There was a sly sense of humour to a lot of his X-Men stories, that I found funny (in hindsight, most of it is just poor). But, then, he kept churning out a bunch of other work-for-hire stuff that was beneath him, and even I lost faith.

He just doesn't seem to care anymore. But, don't let this taint the brilliant legacy of classic Peter Milligan.

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The Family Man still springs to mind. Maybe not completely cold blooded, but the Constantine still made a point of starting a fight he knew couldn't end until his opponent was dead.

 

 

Did John start that fight? Dude [ Spoiler : killed his pa! ]

Only after he'd already started the fight by getting the tit's agent arrested, Lou.

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The Family Man still springs to mind. Maybe not completely cold blooded, but the Constantine still made a point of starting a fight he knew couldn't end until his opponent was dead.

 

 

Did John start that fight? Dude [ Spoiler : killed his pa! ]

Only after he'd already started the fight by getting the tit's agent arrested, Lou.

Now you're just being silly. JC didn't intend to "start a fight" with the Family Man. Quite the opposite, and let's remember that the Family Man was doing his utmost to kill JC, so the deed was arguably self defense. Comparing that to both the yuppie and the wifebeater is ludicrous.

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The way I remember it, Constantine set out to attract the Family Man's attention in the first place. He hadn't even heard of Constantine until after he'd started in on that. He may not have thought that through, but he'd have to be pretty bloody stupid not to realise that was something that might escalate, wouldn't he?

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I have to go back and re-read that one. I remember Jerry fucking off into storyland and JC giving FM a sippy cup full of baby's blood. I don't think that sat too well with John. Fast forward to the end.

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I don't have my copies to hand either, Lou, but if memory serves:

 

[ Spoiler : After Jerry gets dragged off into storyland, Constantine opens his safe finding a lot of money, a a lot of cocaine and an envelope made out to the Family Man. An old fart turns up asking about the letter, which Constantine hands over, and receives a parcel in return. When he looks at Jerry's ledgers he finds that Jerry has been feeding the Family Man information about victims, and he opens the parcel to find (as you say) a toddler's cup full of blood.

Constantine's subsequent pursuit of the Family Man is down to his outrage that he's been dragged into this, and his guilt at setting up some poor bastards for the evil git. Hence his arranging for the git's other agent to be arrested, and making a point of exposing himself at the photo for a red top to make it clear that he's responsible for that. Given all of the hand wringing and angst about the morals of murder throughout the story, my reading is that he's deliberately engineered a situation where the Family Man is going to come after him, which provides a justification for killing the guy. ]

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... X-Statix.

+1. As well as a lot of Pete's 2000AD work.

 

 

...I don't remember John ever straight up murdering anyone in cold blood before besides the Family Man serial killer and even then John struggled with killing him even though he murdered his dad as well as friend of Johns.

I keep going back to that, too. Even though it was over 20 years ago and characters change, John-the-killer just doesn't sit right with me.

I might have phrased that poorly. I was trying to say that John-the-killer in the Milligan era feels wrong to me because he struggled with killing the Family Man. I certainly didn't have issues with John killing the Family Man — in fact it was one of the title's high water marks.

Edited by JasonT

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In contrast, he has no trouble killing demons. Is that alright in his mind because they have no free will, so are just machines made by a malignant god to enforce his will, or because John knows demons can't really be killed?.

 

He certainly has reasoned with, tortured, argued with, asked the advice of, and consoled ( and I think even slept with ) various demons, so he doesn't really consistantly treat them like god machines it is jolly fine to simply switch off without remorse.

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Hmm...Good question as to whether demons have free will in the HB universe. I'm not really sure.

It doesn't seem that they are ever capable of doing outright GOOD, even though Ellie seems to try.

Ellie, at least, seems to show the traits of free will, although without the ability for "salvation".

 

On the other hand, we know that HB operates based on the trappings of Judeo-Christian mythology (maybe not fully, but as the myth cycle for John's world), and so demons would be totally evil beings.

Humans are all capable of remorse and repentance.

I'd say it's a case of this difference.

Although the fact that demons aren't supposed to ever be able to truly die could certainly also play a part. Do they even have life, as we'd think of it, to start with?

I don't want to think about continuity now, but isn't it that Nergal was once a mortal who is long dead. So, a demon isn't strictly physical in the way of other mortal entities.

Didn't John kill a cat for the spell he placed on his father's soul? He didn't seem very upset by that, and surely a cat's life is worth more than a damned demon's life.

John is a humanist, at heart, after all. So, he places human life above the lives of non-humans, I'd say.

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I read somewhere that a tradition in the cabala has it that demons can be killed. If they don't have free will they couldn't have fallen, I'd assume. They're basically angels that don't channel divine power. John fucked up Gabriel anyway.

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