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St. Apathy

Captain America: The Winter Soldier

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And here we go

 

I really like the look & tone of this. A solid superhero espionage thriller.

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FUCK YEAH !.

 

 

(Did I do the accent right, Lou?. Bwahahaha.)

 

<---- Is not shy that he likes Cap, and every. fucking. thing. he stands for.

 

*Captain America frowns*

 

Opps, sorry Sir, pardonnez mon francais.

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Looks good! I'm not a huge fan of Cap, but this looks like fun.

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I have watched that three times now. It strikes me they have not tried to improve on the story as it was laid down in print. How excitingly refreshing and wise of them.

 

Also, I worry about myself sometimes. I mean, not the bouncing and wriggling in my seat, physically JUMPING up and down, in my chair, as I watch an entertainment* and then giggling to myself. That is just two million years of evolution, me trying to show the other ape that has my attention with his dominance display that "It is good, not a rival over here, jumping encouragingly and all that".

 

No, my worry is that I watched that and had a bob each way. I kinda understand Furys point. Someone tasked him with protecting a society, and that society is the declared target of people like Red Skull and Hydra and so forth. If he plays by the rules of Gentlemanly Behaviour he will fail his task and families will be burnt to death by fire-storms. A follows B folks, and would you rather have your outmoded sensibilities offended or your child's eyeballs not boiling?.

 

But then, Cap represents an Ideal I approve of with my hearts last drop of blood, and he says you don't compromise your morals or you become your enemy.

 

Of course, this means I am probably just a minion, and the bad sort, the sort that picks a convincing master then lets the Master set his morals for him.

 

I am with child to watch this film.

 

* No, not all three times, what sort of sad sack do you take me for?. :tongue:

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I always suspected that the reference the comics name made was to the play "The Lion in Winter" though that turned out to be me being fanciful. The implication I took was Cap is old, old fashioned and old in years. And yet still potent, like Henry the Second in the play. However, I had never read it all or even a lot of it and didn't realise it wasn't him being referred to, but the other guy.

 

Having a look at Wiki to see what is up, I suspect it was actually referencing Thomas Paine's first American Crisis paper, written in December 1776. And the lines of Paine's writing that they were referencing were. I am guessing,

These are the times that try men's souls: The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.

 

The allusion is to the idea that the opposite of a summer soldier, a person who won't stick by his duty when times get hard, is a winter soldier who will do his duty come rain or shine, or approval or disapproval. I guess?. :tongue:

 

<--- Likes words a lot, as has been said before.

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No, my worry is that I watched that and had a bob each way. I kinda understand Furys point. Someone tasked him with protecting a society, and that society is the declared target of people like Red Skull and Hydra and so forth. If he plays by the rules of Gentlemanly Behaviour he will fail his task and families will be burnt to death by fire-storms. A follows B folks, and would you rather have your outmoded sensibilities offended or your child's eyeballs not boiling?.

This is the problem with creating a fictionalized universe where you really DO need "preemptive justice" to save the world. It creates a false moral conundrum.

Also, this is especially prominent in superhero comics, where the villains very rarely are motivated by anything which motivates real world villains, but rather want "world domination" or just plain like to make people suffer, or are crazy. In the real world most villainy has a political source, and thus a political solution, in a superhero world that isn't necessarily the case.

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No, my worry is that I watched that and had a bob each way. I kinda understand Furys point. Someone tasked him with protecting a society, and that society is the declared target of people like Red Skull and Hydra and so forth. If he plays by the rules of Gentlemanly Behaviour he will fail his task and families will be burnt to death by fire-storms. A follows B folks, and would you rather have your outmoded sensibilities offended or your child's eyeballs not boiling?.

This is the problem with creating a fictionalized universe where you really DO need "preemptive justice" to save the world. It creates a false moral conundrum.

Also, this is especially prominent in superhero comics, where the villains very rarely are motivated by anything which motivates real world villains, but rather want "world domination" or just plain like to make people suffer, or are crazy. In the real world most villainy has a political source, and thus a political solution, in a superhero world that isn't necessarily the case.

+1

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No, my worry is that I watched that and had a bob each way. I kinda understand Furys point. Someone tasked him with protecting a society, and that society is the declared target of people like Red Skull and Hydra and so forth. If he plays by the rules of Gentlemanly Behaviour he will fail his task and families will be burnt to death by fire-storms. A follows B folks, and would you rather have your outmoded sensibilities offended or your child's eyeballs not boiling?.

This is the problem with creating a fictionalized universe where you really DO need "preemptive justice" to save the world. It creates a false moral conundrum.

Also, this is especially prominent in superhero comics, where the villains very rarely are motivated by anything which motivates real world villains, but rather want "world domination" or just plain like to make people suffer, or are crazy. In the real world most villainy has a political source, and thus a political solution, in a superhero world that isn't necessarily the case.

 

Yeah, they are stories.

 

However, you raise the topic of "Real World Villains" and skate lightly over thin ice by saying "most villainy has a political source, and thus a political solution". Some villains we share the world with are just exactly wanting world domination or just plain like to make people suffer.

Do you know a political solution Idi Amin would have accepted that was acceptable to the people around him?, cause, you know, he made his own one and it was "I get to do what I want, and that is make people suffer".

Are you prepared to sign a political solution with al spider?, because regardless of what we would fondly like to hope, they won't stop until all the women you and I see every day are denied fundamental rights, they will sign a million settlements and just carry on until they have dominated the world. It is their expressed intent.

The proof that they will sign and murder on is they have done exactly that in Algeria, Somalia, etc. You and I have both lived through years of political settlements all round the world, that villains on both sides have promptly broken and gone back to their villainy

In fact, most actual villains the world endures, have political solutions in mind that are unacceptable to everyone else. That is why they don't just stand for Parliament.

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Idi Amin or Josef Stalin or Osama bin Laden aren't as interesting as the reasons a lot of people supprt them. I'm not at all denying that villains exist, I'm just saying that in the real world, the reasons they are dagnerous are political - as you say yourself the villains "have political solutions in mind that are unacceptable to everyone else". And yet, because of issues like poverty, massive wealth and power inequality, historical injustice, imperialism etc, some villains are able to portray themselves as heroes. THAT is how they become dangerous. Since they're not "supervillains", and thus not dangerous in themselves, it is the political and social environment which fosters their popular support which is the issue. In superhero comics, the villaisn don't need popular support of any kind to pose massive threats to society.

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Alright, I understand that line of reasoning then. And I pay the idea that the politic situation is what offers al spider the underclass of uglies that passes for "popular" support for them. I just have issue with your idea that there is a "political" solution to a lot of causes. It is like saying "We can cure death, just have everyone take cyanide, simple, no death any more".

There is maybe a political panacea that denies al spider their fan base of people in Pakistan and Saudi that are passive supporters, people who resist their government doing anything real about the actual offenders, the red-eyed murderers that are the actual threat. There is no political solution for the actual committed member that is not "OK, here are the keys to the world, we are your slaves now, Oh Teachers, tell us how to live".

 

And while the idea of making them hide from us and also from the populations of the Islamic countries appeals, in the mean time, unless the political situation is a "one size fits all, acts as a catalyst, just add to the dirt" kind of thing . . . we need pragmatic people on our boarders who are going to stop al shab and al al qaeda and ansar al islam and etc. And those pragmatic people ought to obey the sprit of the law, but our laws are not made to deal as a matter of routine, with people wearing suicide vests in the High Street.

 

They rub their hands to hear these sorts of debates. If the situation was entirely reversed, what human rights would any Islamic country offer its committed, terrorist organised assailants?. What do they offer their assailants now, the rule of law and considered careful escalation of force?.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mosque_Seizure

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I'm just saying that I have issues with superhero films using contrived moral dilemmas to effectively argue against basic liberal tenets of the rule of law, like innocence until proven guilty, the right to a trial etc. I vertainly hope you're with me in thinking those rights need to be protected. Thankfully, in the trailer it seems Cap has the correct moral compass. We already know that Fury doesn't. (He used the tesseract to make weapons of mass destruction in the Avengers, after all)

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If it is possible without risking the life of innocent citizens, and absolutely in that list are police officers and other civil servants like Soldiers and counter-terrorism officers, then yes, every civil society must accept the massive extra costs these wackjobs terrorists are extorting us with, increased security, checking and re-checking, etc. Just the cost of doing business in a world where people have got it into their heads that any deed is OK if you claim it is in the cause of Politics.

And already you know I totally agree that the High Court with its slow careful pomp and ceremony, and normal trials are the perfect, the proper path to deal with them if they can be caught, Have you ever heard me say anything else?. When those two inept pricks tried to blow up the concourse in the Scottish Airport, in the name of Islamic terrorism, and were caught, did I say anything about any alternative to normal trials and prison for them?. Did I criticise the verdicts or sentences?.

 

But the next ones, on their way right now, and there are some, if the alternative is to let them carry out their stated aim of destroying our way of life, those guys need shooting dead with no warning, they NEED this because events have proven they often as not they blow up their explosives if warned. And thankfully the governments are all pragmatic enough to accept this as the only possible way to act.

 

If the Police could have learnt about those two men, their duty to those families in the concourse of the Airport was to kill those two men without warning. They had explosives that only their own ineptitude prevented flooded that building with burning gas. I could have done it, with half the gas and twenty times the effect.

 

These are not people you can stop by Policeman Plod walking up and saying "Ello ello ello, now you just come with me Sonny-Jim, you are under arrest".

 

Edit to add, the reason, perfectly valid, that Fury made those weapons was because people like Mongol and Darkseid exist in that world and send super-armed minions to kill women and children on Earth. QED If the chance to make weapons that will protect humanity exists, pragmatic, rational men must make them to protect everyone.

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You forget that it was the use of the Tesseract which prompted the invasion in the first place. Thor says as much in the Avengers "It sends out a signal that you are ready for a higher form of war".

 

As for the political debate here, I think I'll just say that we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think the greatest threat to our liberties come from governments, not terrorists. You think otherwise.

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Yes, there is really no point having the discussion is there, as we are both intelligent people who have given the matter a lot of thought. We have our opinions regardless. I think the hypothetical "Greatest" threat is a misleading thing to think about when the world has "actual" threats.

If my eldest Nephew was a film producer instead of a Biologist, and lived in Holland, no government AT ALL, let alone the Dutch one, would offer him the threat of stabbing to death then having his throat cut. If my eldest Niece was a Lesbian, or an Atheist, ONLY the Islamic Republics and Kingdoms and their trench-mates the Islamic terrorists, offer her the threat of being hung by the neck until death because of her natural impulses. And so on. Real, confirmed-by-occurring actual threats.

 

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I'm optimistically cautious. :smile:

Actually, I'm rather excited for this. Far more than AMS 2 and more than the first Cap movie. There's a certain amount of gravitas showing in this that I'm appreciating.

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