A. Heathen

deliberately as seen in the film.

Art by David Hitchcock.

http://www.blackboar.co.uk/

Yeah, and I invented that Hellblazer cover statue idea for Just 1 Page 3.

His Daffy Duck Doctor Who trailer is the fucking business.

winged monkeys

and

dirty cotton wool buds

The thing is Tes, this is "John Constantine Hellblazer" not "How the First of the Fallen grew up".

 

For a second there it was "Nergal- My Story, My Struggle".

Very True and I could have done with a tad less of that, but that's mainly there because the Nergal Family were John's enemy d'annee.

And because the whole Carey Arc is about family.

The thing is Tes, this is "John Constantine Hellblazer" not "How the First of the Fallen grew up".

The importance of Bryce's comments and James's elsewhere is that FotF as seen in this story can be extrapolated between appearances, and given the horrible soap opera mess over at Swamp Thing I'd rather my occasional characters were not over-explained.

My parents got divorced when I was about 13 or 14 and both have since remarried.

 

So I have two parents, a stepfather and a stepmother.

 

It has just occured to me that my parents have been divorced for more of my life than they were married for.  :wacko:

My family tree looks like this

MOM + DAD => DEB & ADE

MOM + TONY => MARC

DAD + BARBARA => DAWN

DEB + STEVE => CARL & EMMA

DAWN + ALI => ROSS & SCOTT & ABBY

ROSS + FREYA => ELLIE MAY

MARC + ANNA => ELIZABETH, JESSICA & CHRISTIAN

ADE + KAREN = two pet rats

We spend $3.00 for 15 minutes worth of entertainment....how sad.....

 

Of course we are not only getting 15 minutes.

Or else what are we doing here?

Many Happy Returns

Rogan's off travelling backwards in time to the date that the first humour elemental was created.

You can see him in the background here:

and here:

and here:

A quick update is that Tim has the order and will send them via my friend and his, Joel Meadows who returns to the UK sometime soon.

You'll all have to pay me soon.

Get ready.

Heh heh heh.

HeheheheheheHEH!

And the chimpanzee in Return to the Planet of the Apes was trained by Clyde the orangutan from A Fist Full of Dollars.

Bugfuckering Hell!

I could do that!

"And all the munchkins and oompa-loompas are descended from the dwarf in Lord of the Rings, but Spider-Man and Doctor Who stopped them taking over Faerie. Again."

JLA Age of Wonder was better than many of the Elseworlds stories of late

http://www.thefourthrail.com/reviews/criti...ofwonder1.shtml

and is better than it's contemporary JLA DCU counterpart.

But Adi likes to be a curmudgeon.

I cannot relate to most the comics threads on the V.

"This weeks comics" really is the antithesis of a celebration of what is good this week and is instead a rolling dialogue about Xmen, Ultimates and the DCU top 3.

But that's because my current tastes do not stretch to stuff I read nearly twenty years ago.

I believe that John would become apathetic and "normal" in such a world. He'd find no purpose and blend in with the other people in such a world, content to live like everyone else, as the restraints of dogma and propoganda no longer exist. It is also the tragedy and the mistakes of his past that define who John is, so he'd also be a completely different personality type. Less the Socialist and more the "addict", I'd assume.

I find it remarkable that you of all people would think that if you remove Heaven and Hell there'd be no dogma and propaganda. Do you really think that's so?

As far as I know (first film only) the Potterverse has Good and Evil to contend with.

And human nature has been part of what Constantine has had to contend with since day 1 - consider the Yuppie story with no demons just yuppies - it would still work, perhaps on a more realistic level.

Taking your beloved addict concept, if you remove magic he'd find another addiction - indeed his bug could be simplified to fighting authority (from either side). He'd probably get his colleagues locked up by engaging them in ill-advised protests and the like.

At least I'll buy that issue.

Dysart has some really interesting things to say on the ST forum, but I just cannot work out how his ideas fail to connect with paper.

Although looking at yet another Abby and Swampy reunited page at the end of the last issue, i suggest "editorial meddling".

Sorted.

And just to add, by way of my apology, that it is not yours or Josh's unhappiness with the arc that I was challenging, but what amounted to ill-advised conjecture and use of the dread d.e.m. term.

Anyway, can we go back to being elitest (sic - because I am more elitest than anyone else).

So.

When all avenues are closed to you. Fall back on "that's my opinion and I am right".

 

I don't think so.

 

Adrian. For fuck's sake. That's a totally unreasonable comment, and you damn well know it is - and, more to the point, it's precisely what you're doing right here.

Yes. It's called mirroring. And it was a comment aimed at something Josh said with a smiley.

I've made that perfectly clear a number of times - your continuing insistence on arguing against points I haven't made notwithstanding.

I do not believe I addressed you directly in my latest post, and that's because I am arguing with general points made about the story rather than any individual person.

However, when you said

I agree with Josh on both counts here. Whether or not it's possible to classify the First's sudden intervention as a true deus ex machina (he had already appeared in the story, after all), it was still a fairly abrupt and dramatically-unconvincing way to resolve the story, and one which hadn't been remotely set up in earlier issues (having a character turn up one issue earlier and solemnly swear not to do the precise thing he subsequently does in the final installment doesn't count as set-up, to my mind. Misdirection, possibly, but certainly not set-up). It's arguable that the intervention was in-character, since the First has always been shown as having a fairly short attention span and willingness to go back on his word, but since there's been a fairly lengthy discussion in this very thread about how different Carey's version of the First here is from Ennis and Jenkins' depictions of the character (in a good way, for the most part, but still definitely a very different character), that's a dodgy point to be arguing from.

despite your attempts to qualify your statements you appear to be saying exactly the things that I am addressing in my post ("it might not be a deus ex machina, but ..." and "it's arguable if it's in character but ..."). If you're not, then I am sorry that you somehow feel attacked by my counterargument regardin them.

Whether or not it was a conscious story-telling decision or a last-minute response to having painted himself into a corner (personally, based on Carey's general approach to long-term planning and story-structures, I'm inclined to assume the former) is (a) impossible to prove, and (b) irrelevant. What matters is whether we, as readers, found it effective and convincing or not. You did, and I didn't. It's as simple as that.

It's only relevant because Josh raised the issue and you said it was a shame to see it apparently happening here. Which was what I was addressing in that line you quoted above.

I've got similar thoughts to you about the pacing of the overall story throughout the Carey Arc. The repeated complaint has been that something happened too quickly (eg between issues in Black Flowers) but my feeling is that several arcs have been more drawn out than they should in order to drop in crowd-pleasing cameos. This with the First, hits the right balance for me.

But I'd like to hear the opinions of newer readers with no prior expectations of The First. Know where we can find some?

I agree with Adrian.

It looked really good for the first two (maybe 3) issues, and then it just totally lost my interest.

It was a very....dark....series.

 

Unlike Adrian, I did enjoy this series more than "Gotham County Line", but that's because I must keep my hatred of Steve Niles alive. As long as I continue to hate the man's writing, I am sure he will not get that coveted job with Vertigo that everyone is clamouring for.

Death to Niles' career!

:lol:

Much of Steve Niles' current output must have been written over the years that he's been hiding in the background since his early Clive Barker related comics.

This one seems newer for him.

30 Days of Night is excellent.

However a lot of his subsequent stuff did seem to be produced by a Halloween cookie-cutter.

So.

When all avenues are closed to you. Fall back on "that's my opinion and I am right".

I don't think so.

The First of the Fallen Solution was as well sign-posted as you'd expect in this kind of story. And more importantly, as James has shown, it's in keeping with the history of the book.

You won't be able to disprove this with your opinions, since all the evidence is stacked in Mike's favour. Despite your wish for more FotF Exposition - short of not having the First in this story at all - Mike's hit the right balance of established behaviour and unpredictability. The end result would not have been predictable if FotF had not been in the story at all, but he was in the story, and all we can do is look at the evidence of James's post (or in my case, my memory) and see that it was a perfectly reasonable cause of action for him. If he'd have been in the story more this ending would have been simple to predict. So I say it's a story telling choice, not a last minute realisation, as Josh claims.

In my opinion, Mike knew exactly which corner he was going to end up in, aimed for it and got there. One of the things that a writer on an ongoing series ought to aim for is to somehow impact on the overall story - and hopefully future stories.

Many choose to do that by creating cool characters that everyone will want to use (Ennis - FotF; Jenkins - Demon Constantine; Ellis - lots of decent supporting cast members, so good that they survived the Carey years intact.) Among other things Mike has restored The First as a decent opponent merely by his actions in the last two issues.

But if you're

"a bit disappointed that it didn't play out that way (you) felt it should have"

feel free to find fault where you can.

"I agree with Josh on both counts here. Whether or not it's possible to classify the First's sudden intervention as a true deus ex machina (he had already appeared in the story, after all),"

Talking of paying attention.

So you do not agree with Josh that it is a Deus Ex Machina ?

Because Josh thinks it is.

However, I was predominantly addressing your complaint about "set up" :-

having a character turn up one issue earlier and solemnly swear not to do the precise thing he subsequently does in the final installment doesn't count as set-up, to my mind

Which does not reflect the facts (1) in the issues referred to (2) regarding FotF's character at any stage of his continuity. To my mind.

But clearly we need to pay closer attention to what was said by FotF.

(1) His solemn oath is nothing of the sort, "I wouldn't interrupt this drama for god's balls and a nutcracker". Rather it is the quip of someone previously bored with events - and the sort of thing one goes back on at the drop of a knife when your entertainment is threatened. You know, by your nemesis getting to redeem himself and die at someone else's hands. Keen observers have noted this as a reference to a recent film about redemption of a character calling himself "Constanteen".

(2) Since regaining his status in Hell (who knows how?), FotF has waited perhaps as long as seven years. It is completely in keeping He is the anti-Constantine, and his attitudes are often opposite to John's but he has been shown to react in the same way - "ooh I see a chance to get revenge/save the world, if only it doesn't all go horribly wrong !" And of course it usually does for both of them.

John's marginally better at laying out a plan.

It is a further problem that we have not seen all of his experiences - which of course leaves comics readers going "But he would not have acted like this in issue 123 !" I've said before that I think Mike Carey has filled in this sort of character development very well in Hellblazer, ie without spelling it out: "Aha, Mister Constantine ! I've been expecting you and watching your every move and I thereby developed this complicated plan" would have been a reasonable ending to this arc. But it would also have been a standard plot device.

Like Gemma, FotF's development has been off the page.

Which is where I would rather it stays.

"Set up earlier in the story."

When The First turns up at the auction, he's not invited, but makes it clear he's been keeping abreast of developments in Constantine's situation. He is duped by John (again) but takes Ghant off for a bit of "don't mess in my business" counselling down in Hell.

Perhaps he's easily duped, but he also wants his own vengeance on Constantine.

As is shown in #211: He's bored to be there for the pomp and ceremony, but when Constantine arrives he perks up, and expresses an interest in seeing how things develop.

"Excellent! I saw entertainments like this when I lived on Earth. Soap operas I think they're called." "You'll be mine in the end no matter what you do. I wouldn't interrupt this drama for god's balls and a nutcracker." Which does not preclude him acting as he later does, even under accusation of misdirection.

He gets bored easily.

As we know.

He gives Nergal Prime permission to carry on, knowing that he can intervene if things don't go his way, but also because Nergy-baby has pledged allegiance to him. And he intervenes at the point that John has offered to sacrifice his own life in return for Cheryl's - not only because of his stated intent that "I can't have your death meaning something", but also because he's seen how important Cheryl is to John.

That has to be the most elaborately established Deus-ex-fucking-machina in the history of inappropriately used literary terms.

I seem to remember the last few issues being a return to form. Something that happens a lot with Vertigo, as if the writers say "hah! you bastards, here's a really good story that I was saving but now am going to have to rush and it's your fault for not getting your friends to take part !"

They were three fine central characters though.

Even Shade the Mad Bastard was a likeable bastard when he got there.

My friend Ken has been reviewing old Vertigo-type series on his blog.

If most of my old comics were not in my Dad's loft I'd do likewise.

I saw James Stewart, Orson Welles and John Carradine in there too !

I enjoyed the start of the series much more than the end.

And the Sudden Infant Plot Device Syndrome of Harvey's brother was v.poor.

A great deal of the psychology and psychiatry of the first issue was questionable, but I was prepared to tolerate that.

http://politedissent.com/archives/750

http://politedissent.com/archives/951

I'm enjoying Steve Niles' Batman (feat. Deadman) story "Gotham County Line" much more.