A. Heathen

(Can't you merge this with the *proper* All His Engines thread to trick "Tears" over to the comic series discussions ?)

Here's a couple of observations from me.

1) Tears, as someone involved in the film, you have collectovely demonstrated not understanding the John Constantine of Hellblazer, however it is admirable that you are trying. The fact that you missed John's "usual" "wit" when in fact it is there in the examples you've been given indicates that you need to keep (being) trying.

2) I agree with Mark that it's not our place to be snarky to everyone who defends the films and propagates the idea of a sequel. I find it quite tiresome how some folks deny the successes of the film, even though I find said film very disappointing. However, Tears' "same old same old" is too close to the attempts by the film makers to aggregate fans of the comic series into a homogenous lump of antipathy. Presumably they can then get Peter Stormare to take us out of the body of the public. It's not the same old anything when a new member of the forum states their case.

And yes, I am deliberately lumping the movie people into a homogenous lump etc etc I'll stop when you all do.

*Mister* Shirley, you gruff northerner you !

Well, since we often point out that each writer has brought something of their own to Constantine, James is being realistic. But is he being accurate ?

http://www.capalert.com/capreports/constantine.htm

Wanton Violence/Crime (W)

 

extremely graphic pedestrian hit by a car

tale of multiple police action killings

graphic impalement painting

graphic self injury, repeated

bloody injury

insect crawling out of man's eye

insect manifestation of man

assault

grand theft - auto

holding woman underwater to near drowning

decaying flesh, graphic, repeatedly

steaming flesh

grotesque fragmentation of flesh

weapon fire to kill

firearm for defense, repeatedly

gunfire passing through flesh with no effect, repeatedly

multiple bodies blown apart by gunfire

slicing wrists to commit suicide

graphic impalement of Satan's hands into Constantine

dead body

implied murder with grand theft - auto

 

Impudence/Hate (I)

 

18 uses of the three/four letter word vocabulary

one use of the most foul of the foul words

 

Sexual Immorality (S)

 

woman in underwear in bed

sexual innuendo

camera angle to force viewer on private parts, repeatedly

rude gaze

 

Drugs/Alcohol (D):

 

smoking, repeatedly, frequent

drinking, repeatedly

use of drink to ease fears

 

Offense to God (O)

 

unholy/demon possessions, repeatedly, some quite graphic

unholy protection from otherwise fatal injuries

crawling on ceiling

book of satanism and witchcraft

grotesque manifestations of unholy forces/entities, repeatedly

demons, repeatedly, frequent

unnatural strength and speed

animals dying as man walked by them

Angel Gabriel as a woman

argument against Salvation through Christ

psychic powers, repeatedly

attack by demons, repeatedly

woman changing water into wine

witch doctor

spiritual use of lukewarm in clear defiance of God's admonition against being lukewarm

portrayal of Satan as a man

"I don't believe in the devil."

journeying to Hell and back, repeatedly

long sequences of being in Hell, extraordinarily graphic

seething bodies in Hell

living decayed body, repeatedly

"When I come back [from Hell]."

insult of God

false bible

upside down crucifix

"I'd trade places with her [in Hell] if I could."

wanting to practice occultism

foreseeing the future

rotted flesh speaking

grotesque fragmentation of flesh

pact with witch doctor

Gabriel as brutal, sadistic

portrayal of Satan, complete with burned feet and pant cuffs

control of time

Satan having power to kill Gabriel

Gabriel poised to kill by blade the woman bearing the son of Satan

Gabriel as a fallen angel

 

Murder/Suicide (M)

 

detailed portrayal of suicide by jump

murder by demon

I cannot believe they omitted "murder by police officer" and "murder of Chaz" !

Not more accurate then ?

And the JC of old was ten years younger.

Nice of you to notice.

The Crown is in Ireland! Do'h! As homer Simpson says. That's right. I'll use the Cutter as the local, right.

 

...

 

What if JC finds out that he actually had demon's blood in him all along. Nergal was fucking with him, or just sort of topping him off. The reason he's got demon's blood having to do with a witch ancestor who coupled with something she summoned. I don't know how it's significant in my story though.

 

I will in fact put someone somewhere saying 'by the purple balls of charles' in a novel.

The Cutter is not a real pub in London (sadly) but it would be down near wapping, I expect. I can get back to you on that, but also know a very good real pub that could be his local if you want to do what the others have done !

The Northampton Arms was a reference to the homeplace of Delano and Moore of course :-)

I agree with James on the hereditary reason.

The mystery of the Constantine lineage is best left a mystery, because that way lies "being born with the power to see demon half-breeds !"

Edit to add: Incidentally, how open are the Vertigo chaps to artists who aren't established yet? I've been drawing comics off and on for about 13 years but the doors seem to be closed at DC as far as I can tell.

You'd be welcome to join in with Just 1 Page :-D

http://members.aol.com/just1page/J1P3.htm

alongside some top pros and certainly going to be passed to the DC folks who usually attend Bristol (and indirectly to Marvel)

Perhaps one from each of the big two ? ;-)

In the duplicitous nature of Hell it would not be too far-fetched to see Nergal - having been usurped by his daughter (if indeed she is his daughter) - protect his OWN nemesis or to use Constantine to overthrow his own challengers.

That last one has a rake of summaries and links to even more.

Remarkably there's a similar split to the general discussions and even some of the Hellblazer fan ones.

Some said "it's not Christianity, but it raises interesting questions" and others said "it has a theme of redemption, although in a too-violent setting".

Some say it's okay. Others do not.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/re...onstantine.html

This question is easily forgotten in the onslaught of frenzied, CGI-generated apocalyptic imagery. Horror movie buffs will enthusiastically absorb the relentless shocks, the showdowns, and the expletive-laced ultimatums. Lawrence's approach to holding our attention consists of frequent, hushed pauses, followed by explosive assaults to our senses. The camera is at the receiving end of gunfire, punches, blowtorch blasts, and falling bodies. Every few minutes, someone smashes through a mirror, a window, a wall, or a watery surface. One hero half-drowns another. Holy water acts like acid, burning human flesh off demons in disguise. The relentless violence is wearying. By the time Peter Stormare appears in the last act playing the part of Lucifer (Constantine calls him "Lu"), the story has become so convoluted and ridiculous that we can't take the movie seriously anymore. (Judging from his campy, over-the-top performance, neither can Stormare.)

 

 

Constantine, trying to escape the grip of those pesky demons

 

Fortunately, the storytellers know enough to recognize the need for a Christ figure, even if all they have available is an arrogant, resentful con man with the initials "J.C." But the conclusion would have been more resonant if we'd learned not just the wages of sin, but the blessings of obedience. It's a misleading idea that the film presents—good and evil in "balance." Even so, we get gobs of hell and only a glimmer of heaven.

Cappello disclosed the evolution of some of the themes.

 

I think the idea of [true] redemption came about through, one, casting Keanu - because Keanu is a very spiritual person in his own right…He basically believes that we all have a purpose here. John [Constantine] in the comic book…knows both sides [good and evil]. He doesn't totally agree with both sides. He fights for humanity here. And so he uses both sides. He's a con man. He uses both sides to get what he needs, which is a selfish thing, but in a way not, because he's still helping humanity. So the themes that came about… -- John pretty much wanting to do the right thing -- has always been there. He's always been a guy that does the right thing. But to actually do the right thing to get to Heaven? It was not in the comic.

Constantine

 

MPAA Rating: R

Entertainment: +3

Acceptability: -2 1/2

 

Blessed with the ability to see angels and demons, Constantine (Keanu Reeves) is a man caught between heaven and hell. In a desperate and selfish attempt to earn a spot in heaven, he actively fights the progress of the demonic forces by performing exorcisms and other cryptic rituals. Though frustrated at his inability to earn God’s favor, Constantine still agrees to help a young woman (Rachel Weisz) in search of answers about her sister’s apparent suicide. And when he does so, he uncovers a demonic plot to bring hell to earth and also begins to develop sacrificial love along with faith in God’s plans. The film has a strong theme of redemption, but demonic images and explicit, sometimes unbiblical portrayals of important theological concepts overshadow everything else. Preview found this movie to be interesting, engaging and enjoyable but, due to the vivid, violent demonic images and offensive language, gives it negative marks.

More detail available for subscribers.

http://www.gospelcom.net/preview/freerev.php3?2726

The premise for the film is based on some definite biblical ideas, such as heaven and hell, angels and demons, but also exaggerates some biblical ideas and makes them more fantastical. One example is the reference to I Corinthians 17, a chapter that doesn’t really exist, but here they say was “recovered.” The other is the idea that the devil is going to have a son enter the world by a weapon that was supposedly used to kill the Son of God. Still, the story does have some biblical basis, and can challenge one to think about good versus evil, God and the devil, suicide, repentance, and sacrifice. [see relevant issues q&a]

 

Though this film is heavy with atmosphere involving demons and spiritual evil, it is not devoid of uplifting and encouraging moments as well. At one point, the angel Gabriel (Tilda Swinton) shares the Gospel with John. Gabriel tells John that there is sin, but if you repent, God will forgive you. Gabriel also encourages John in the midst of all the evil and says that it’s only in the face of horror where we find our most noblest self. He goes on to say that horror is brought to us so we can rise above it. By the end, there is also a change in some of the characters when they come to believe that God does have a plan for them.

 

While interviewing the director, Francis Lawrence, he explained that his goal for this movie is to entertain. His parents were both scientists, and refers to them as “lapsed Catholics.” So this religious understanding, as well as the logic of science that he learned, gave him some guidance in how he directed this story (which is based on a DC Comic). Lawrence believes that this film presents a story about good versus evil, and is ultimately about a sacrifice that brings about redemption. And regarding the similarity of John Constantine’s initials and those of Jesus Christ, he said it is tough for him to talk about, since that is the name of the character in the original comic book.

... and he hasn't read it.

A lot of comment, no subscription necessary.

http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/...antine2005.html

You can still vote by clicking on those links, but I think that twenty hardcore Hellblazer fans is all the market research demography that Warners need.

With the most important negative factor first, here is what people at Straight to Hell think of the advance publicity.

Poll 3) how important is Constanteen's redemption by God in prejudicing you against this film? = 63

(19 votes, 6 most important, 2 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1007

Poll 4) how important is Shia LeBeouf as Chaz in prejudicing you against this film? = 50

(18 votes, 3 most important, 1 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1008

Poll 1) how important is the Holy Shotgun in prejudicing you against this film? = 47

(20 votes)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1005

Poll 2) how important is Keanu Reeves in prejudicing you against this film? = 35

(19 votes, 1 most important, 4 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1006

Poll 5) how important is Constanteen not being blond/english/like the chap in Hellblazer in prejudicing you against this film? = 26

(18 votes, 1 most important, 3 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1009

Poll 9) how important is the Straight to Hell forum in prejudicing you against this film? = 24

(18 votes, 1 most important, 6 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1013

Poll 6) how important is Fireflies/Matadoor/other shill in prejudicing you against this film? = 22

(18 votes, 5 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1010

Poll 7) how important is the religious content in prejudicing you against this film? = 20

(17 votes, 5 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1011

Poll 8) how important is its heretical or sacrilegious content in prejudicing you against this film? = 1

(18 votes, 17 meaningless)

http://hellblazer.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1012

Poll 10) how important is some other factor in prejudicing you against this film?

(16 votes)

"script is not good ... four authors, three directors, fifty rewrites is made horribly obvious"

"The people behind the scenes of the movie don't exactly give me much (faith)"

"Another major factor influencing my opinion is that no one--not one person attached to the film--made any effort to apprise him/herself of the original source material."

"For Constantine to be seeking redemption is the by far the largest of the changes to his character and for me the worst aspect of this adaptation."

"the number of cliches in the movie, and the amount of material derived from other movies and genres"

"Francis Lawrence. Not because he directed music videos - there's a number of highly talented movie directors who started doing just that-, but on account of the kind of videos he made and artists he worked with."

And yet I'd say that the equations work as follows:

0+M = X

X+a+b+c1+e = D

X+D+k-a+c2+d-k+a+L = E

E+(a^f)+c3-d+g+h+l = J

X+c4+d+L = W

X-E-D-J-W-e = A

A+W+(J/2)+(E/3)+D = C

But this is just a matter of a discussion where we discuss what we like about what we like. In the end it's not a debate.

Play off match.

Michael Uslan, a producer of "Constantine" and a lifelong comic book fan, said changes made to the character for movie audiences were merely cosmetic. He noted the overwhelmingly positive audience reaction last summer when 18 minutes of the film were shown at San Diego ComicCon, the largest annual comic convention in the country.

Thanks for posting it up here, Ethan.

Note to Michael Uslan:

Changing the whole motivation of the character is NOT "cosmetic".

San Diego is not representative of comic readers.

Just of people who go to conventions in America.

And "comics fans" at San Diego are pretty much the people who have been ignoring the Hellblazer comic for ten years or so. It has 10% of the US sales of the best sellers and I doubt there is very much crossover.

He was, however, a danger to her whilst he was drugged up and driving. Odd thing to do on her part.

Just like her Uncle John.

I haven't read 205 yet, so bear that in mind when reading this post. I'm also - latest plotline aside - really enjoying Carey's run, so don't think I have a vendetta or anything against him.

 

Carey's Constantine has definitely had a clearly defined character. Three, in fact. I think what Christian means is that there's been very little character development, and what development there has been is secondary to the plot. It's something which I've noticed in Lucifer, though to a lesser extent. It's not a bad thing, it just shows that he has different priorities from, say, Ennis who is pretty much the opposite.

Aww, did you think we'd neglected your essay?

For a start, Carey's tenure has matured John's character seamlessly, even without resorting to the life-changing events that John has experienced. John doesn't mope any more, he deals with matters with more responsibility though.

From retrieving Gemma from Fredericks to the "parasuicide" route to Hell.

And he still has that careless bastard way with supporting cast - Jason, "The Doomed Patrol" and Trish-in-a-bag.

He's not been acting out of character (unlike some Constantines) but he's not acted predictably either.

Of course, most of what we've seen has been responsiblity to his family and friends. And that is where the majority of the recent character development has happened.

I think you do a good job of enumerating the events, but a couple of factors are missing from your analysis of their impact.

1) How many more times - in the "real time" format of the Hellblazer series - can John experience Crisis -> Action -> Regret -> Breakdown ? The down and out on the streets moping, versus the down and out with (magical not medical) amnesia wondering who he is. That's a new aspect to Constantine's tale.

John has pulled together Magical Super-teams before, people have died but the world has been saved. In Carey's version, his team was fucked up from the start. Either he's losing his touch, or his potential allies, but he reacts to this by sticking with people closest to him. As I've said before, the latest (mega-)arc has Constantine maturing, and if that didn't happen, how would a writer avoid "Batman syndrome"? ie "timeline shift" and "repetitive story injury".

2) The events really do take place over a few months at most.

As Christian and yourself suggest, the stories have been relentless barely room to breath, but it would be unlikely to see major "character development" or whatever you chose to call it. And yet Carey has dealt with the character of a fifty year old Constantine - defined by all that life experience. Some fifty year old men might get mid-life crises, but most do not. Especially ones whose adult lives have been crisis-bound.

The way Carey's stories flow into one another precludes any of the "sitting around in a bar thinking about all the shit that's just happened" breathers which Ennis, Jenkins, Ellis and even Delano used to break up the larger arcs. As a result, John bounces from one massive crisis to another, without any chance for him or the reader to think seriously about the consequences of his actions.

 

In Staring at the Wall, his overconfidence caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide and almost triggered the extinction of the human race. Now with Ennis, Jenkins and others, you'd get an issue or two of him drinking himself senseless and feeling like shit, and the guilt would probably hang over him for the rest of their runs. But Carey immediately has him suffer from amnesia, which precludes any such storyline until the point at which he can get his memory back. So potential emotional development arc one is scuppered.

No. There *is* emotional development.

The memory loss gave him chance to consider his past actions as an outsider.

If that's not character-driven I don't know what is.

But even when he does get his memories back, any emotional fallout is tempered by the fact that he also recieves the false memories of three nonexistent lifetimes. Even here, there's the opportunity for a little bit of development, perhaps in the form of a single issue in which the effect of John's false memories on his perception of reality is explored in depth. If you think that's not enough to fill an issue, there could always be a few pages to catch up on where Angie and Gemma are, and hinting darkly at some evil plot that his children are working on. It would emphasise how completely fucked John is right now, something which was mentioned very briefly at the end of 200, ignored for 201 and focused on in 202 before being lost amidst the horror and deaths. But instead it gets about ten pages in three issues, and emotional arc two flickers and dies.

I agree that it could have been dealt with in more detail, but Mr Carey's track record suggests that this ball is kept in the air rather than dropped.

And half of the deaths caused by the children may never even be discovered by John. So there goes potential emotional arc number three.

 

And the latest storyline has him running down to Hell to save someone's soul, so I doubt he'll have much time to take onboard everything that's happened of late. Potential emotional arc four, pale and sickly, stares blankly into the fire.

You'd think that dealing with the death of his sister in an "Orpheus and Eurydice" type situation would allow for some introspection.

In theory we might get a chance for the absolute horror of Carey's issues - the genocide of The Beast, the revelation of the deaths of John's friends and acquaintences (and people he just happened to glance at once, in an issue eighty years ago) and the loss of the lives he never had - to come crashing down on John right at the end of his run, causing a catastrophic breakdown. That would be good. But it doesn't change the fact that what we've not really had any real character development, just a series of abrupt changes in John's personality due to supernatural outside influences.

Let's take a notable example of a long-running comic.

Alan Moore's "development" of Swamp Thing was to introduce two major shifts in the character: (1) throwing away everything, (2) sending him to space.

Actually, not much changed in Swampy's personality until the Morrison/Millar run.

Of course, Moore did not develop Constantine at all.

As Tom says, subsequent writers have tagged on their own voice - especially Delano. I think Ennis's run contained much of the "characterisation" stuff that you and Christian seem to be seeking. Jenkins and Carey have both developed the character, but using different story-telling techniques to do so.

As I said, I don't think Constantine having a breakdown would be good at all.

It would be the same old song.

And we are dealing with experiences with consequences.

Not a series of events.

That's one of the strengths of this series (whoever has been writing it) and why I prefer it to any of the other long-running (rebooted) series around the comics universes.

Then again, we differ on the thought that John might go to Hell and save his sister. (Why would she be in Hell anyway ?)

I might prefer my dead comics characters to stay dead, but I am confident that whichever option Mike choses, it will be compelling reading.

Oh, and if anyone thinks that there's been no character development in the Carey Era: Gemma, Chas and now Nergal ? Not to mention the dimensions added to Clarice and Map, and the Kit-like depth afforded to Angie.

And John's relationships with the above are where his development lies.

Or, more succinctly: What Tom Said.

I'll arrive Friday morning and leave on Sunday evening.

I'd say go for convenience of the official hotel.

So we have five people ?

Shall I reserve one twin room room from Thurs - Mon and one from Fri - Sun ?

Well there goes that free trip to London...

London ?

The place that will be played by Prague or Bucharest or Belgrade in the film "Constanteen 2: Teen Angel" ?

Also known as Gotham City ?

Perhaps they could fly you over for the UK Premiere ("see it last !) at the Prince Charles Cinema, Off Leicester Square.

I heard that them cockneys don't even know that the Constanteen film exists !

that is what the internerd is for

same thing.

The point was ... Oooh James has a longer memory !