Genevieve

To get this back on track, what purpose did Chas serve anyway?  He felt like a leftover; her didn't perform any useful function in the film, and there would have been more room for character development if he hadn't been included.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It would have been nice if his role had been a little more fleshed out, but essentially he was there to be the novice to Constantine's (and Papa Midnite's) professional. And, of course, to be killed off, which I honestly wasn't expecting. He could have been nicely rounded out with a couple of minutes of additional dialogue - maybe a quick talk with Angela in the vein of "so, how did you get involved in all this shit?" would have done the trick.

I like the movie with Keanu, but if Sean Bean had starred in it, I would have found a way to marry it.

Sean Bean is sex on a stick, and is criminally underused.

[so, Christ's descent to Hell, which is described in the Apocrypha, I believe, is officially accepted by the Catholic Church?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Harrowing of Hell? Yeah, it is, but I think it's via Tradition. I can ask my sister, who attends a Catholic college and is therefore much more versed in dogma than I am, if you're interested.

 

couldn't then the same be said about the Longinus story, since they're both from the Gospel saccording to Nicodemus, if i'm not mistaken...?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't read Nicodemus, but I know it's considered apocryphal, and what's contained in it would not necessarily have become capital-T Tradition for the Catholic Church unless there was some other reason for it. I don't believe Nicodemus is the source for the docrine of Purgatory, either. Since Nicodemus isn't part of the Bible, and the stories of the crucifiction actually in the Bible clearly state that Christ was dead before being pierced with the spear, then it's very unlikely for a different version to become part of official Church teachings. John 19:34 says directly that the Roman soldiers saw Christ was dead, and therefore didn't break his legs, but one soldier thrust the lance and only blood and water came out.

Here's a good site that explains the difference between the Catholic ideas of traditions influenced by the guidance of the Holy Spirit to become Traditions, as compared to the Protestant tradition of the Bible being the literal word of God in every respect. The same site has a good discussion of the doctrine of Purgatory here.

I feel like I'm lecturing on a topic I'm not qualified for. I'll shut up now *g*

[so, Christ's descent to Hell, which is described in the Apocrypha, I believe, is officially accepted by the Catholic Church?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Harrowing of Hell? Yeah, it is, but I think it's via Tradition. I can ask my sister, who attends a Catholic college and is therefore much more versed in dogma than I am, if you're interested.

Here's a version I scanned from a postcard: Fra Angelico's "Christ Descends Into Limbo," painted in a monastery. I particularly love the demon squished under Christ's feet by the door he's just kicked in.

Gene-You're welcome to stay! Even if you decided you never wanted to read a "Hellblazer" comic again, there's lot of other topics on this Forum! Everyone is welcome! No worries!

ACX-I like the idea about John as a wandering ghost. Some great Existential stories inherent in that idea!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be pretty cool. And you'd know he was manifesting next to you because you'd smell a cigarette burning. Or maybe there would be the faint odor of beer...

I love Tim Powers, and Declare was an excellent book. But since reading the novelization, it's his book Stranger Tides that comes to mind, what with Papa Midnight having Blackbeard's head in a bottle. (I think somebody else caught that as well, on a thread with the author of the novelization.) Oh...there's another route JC would probably not want to go: as a head in a bottle in somebody else's storage room for magical artifacts.

Yeah the movie was changed a fair amount at the last moment. The dialogue somewhat. Scenes were cut...somethings different...I wish I'd seen it I could have written the novelization better. Sets for example, actors, couldve been in the book right...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just wanted to say that I picked up the novelization last night, and gulped it down. Really well done, despite the hurdles you had to jump to make it work. It pulled the whole movie together much more strongly, and added a lot of depth to the whole shebang. In short, me likee. Thanks for doing such a great job with it!

I guess all anyone can say to that is that "Hellblazer" is not for everyone. There are plenty of other comic books out there which would be more to your tastes. Obviously, the majority of us on this site love "Hellblazer" as it currently stands, and dislike the movie version.

Well, yes. Although as I said on other threads in the Constantine section, several of the graphic novels work really well for me. I'm not exclusively a movieverse person, although as I said above, I tend to skew that way for what are no doubt very squishy reasons. Plus, the discussions here are really interesting, so I'd like to stick around and watch them.

(Which, can I ask...Constantine has to die eventually, right?  So would it work out as a "JC pulls one last big con and slides into Heaven by the skin of his teeth" thing?  Because the other alternative for him is Hell, which...not so good, with the eternal torment and stuff.  If he hates both equally, where does he end up after he finally kicks it?)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that breaking the assumption that there are only two major players is where John will shine when he dies. He'll come up with another option--get himself quickly reincarnated, kick someone else's soul out of their body, or get himself bound to something bigger than himself that defied both heaven and hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, gotcha - very interesting. Could this maybe tie in with the Swamp Thing elemental stuff? (I've not read any Swamp Thing, so all I know about it is from reading synopses). I could see him working out a way to constantly stay out of the reach of both Heaven and Hell, and never have to make a "choice" either way.

I'll throw my hat into the ring, as I've already babbled on other threads that I tend to prefer the movieverse to the comicverse. So, here's why I'd be interested in seeing other stories set in the movieverse.

Basically, my belief system lines up more closely with the one depicted in the movieverse. Not identically, mind you - the biggest weak spot for me was the insistence that suicide = one way ticket to hell. Or, maybe you can expand this to say that my personal beliefs don't have God as rulebound as the movieverse does, but it's still a far sight more comforting than the comicverse cosmos is.

(Which, can I ask...Constantine has to die eventually, right? So would it work out as a "JC pulls one last big con and slides into Heaven by the skin of his teeth" thing? Because the other alternative for him is Hell, which...not so good, with the eternal torment and stuff. If he hates both equally, where does he end up after he finally kicks it?)

Essentially, I need a little more triumph, and less nilihism in the stuff I read. From what little I've read, it seems that JC either has to be such a bastard that the massive body count of friends and lovers doesn't bug him unduly, or he has to be so wracked with pain and guilt over it that it would make him completely nonfunctional. (Obviously, I'm having some difficulties dealing with that roster of dead friends.) So for the hardcore comicverse readers, I can get why the movie version of the World O' Constantine would be a massive simplification and therefore boring. It is much more simplified (although I'd love for some other gods to be brought in.) But for me, it gives me an interesting world with lots of shades of grey but with some hope left. I can play in it without frequently feeling sick to my stomach.

There, now you all can call me a pussy *g*

Can I consider myself a Hellblazer fan if I only like some of the books, plus the movie?

 

YES! Welcome to the forums.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks! You guys have a great board here.

BTW, does anyone know when and why suicide became a sin?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Suicide was considered a sin of despair: the ultimate statement that you don't believe that your life can improve means that you don't trust God enough to help you through your troubles. As you can probably tell, this thought evolved long before people understood things like depression and brain chemisty. I'm not sure when it first started to be considered a sin, but I know it must have been fairly early - there are medieval references about the prohibition on "self-slaughter," because of statements in the Bible about the body being the temple in which the Holy Spirit resides. I can dig up the references if anybody's interested, but a Google search on the topic will probably turn up more than I know.

Oddly enough, I think Johnny Depp played quite a Constantine-ish character in Polanski's THE NINTH GATE, even though it wasn't such a great movie.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It wasn't a great adaptation - it was based on one of my favorite books, The Club Dumas, and they lopped off the Three Musketeers plot entirely and just ran with the satanic stuff. (Depp really did look and act like my mental image of Lucas Corso, however.)

No matter how much people dislike Keanu, I think Nicholas Cage would have been an even worse choice, but then I find him irritating in most of his movies.

I need to remind myself to pick up a copy of the novelization.

For all the big parts that I thought didn't work about the movie (some key line deliveries were fumbled, there was a lot of confusion with the worldbuilding, and some plot points were handled badly), I still came away with an overall interest in the movieverse. I prefer the slightly more hopeful tone of the movie compared with the comicverse's overwhelming bleakness. I liked the visual style, the sleekness, the colors, the *look*. It was very evocative and compelling. The majority of the backup characters (Gabriel, Satan, Papa Midnite) were exceedingly well-acted. Keanu's pale, sickly face above the stark black suit, white shirt, black tie worked really well for me. Plus, the gaps in the movie's logic leave a lot of room for other stories to be told. All told, I'm wanting to go back and see the movie in the theaters again, and I'll probably pick it up on DVD - doing both is rare for me. The movie pushed all the right buttons for me, despite things that I'd like to change about it.

It's funny - the gore in Dangerous Habits and Son of Man really didn't traumatize me all that much. But sitting down and starting to read through a stack of the books was what made me go, "Urk, I'm not sure I can handle this." I have the most difficulty with extremely bloody and violent ends for great masses of people, many of whom were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, and if Delano is the guy who did the story with the masked festival turning into the entire town commiting suicide, well...let's just say that reading the synopsis freaked me out a bit. I mean, a guy removing his pet dog's eyeballs with a fork...I can live happily the rest of my life without seeing that on a page in front of me, no matter what kind of statement on Maggie Thatcher's policies it may or may not be.

Reading the reviews of the movie, I see that many thought that too many of the people around Constantine bit the dust. I'm sure readers of Hellblazer laughed their asses off at that, now that I see that it's fairly routine for everybody but John to be eaten by whatever otherworldly critter is being faced. Seriously, aside from Chaz, it's kind of a wonder that he has people to go drinking with.

*makes mental note to postpone learning the secret handshake until blindfolds can be found for the cats. Presumably, the fish can take care of himself.*

Well if you consider the 1983 to be ages then yes. And the new code just leaves it unknown it doesnt establish that its acceptable to be buried on consecrated ground or not. People have and are still sometimes denied burial rights based on suicide and other things.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I suppose twenty years isn't ages, but it's still a fairly large chunk of time. I had thought it went out during the late 1970s, so I wasn't totally offbase.

The whole thing with the Spear isn't the only little bit of Catholic doctrine the movie got wrong. The whole thing with suicides not being allowed a proper burial hasn't been on the books for ages.

Anyway: Genevive, different strokes for different blokes / different kicks for different chicks, as they say. At least I'm not offended that you have different taste in comics than me. (Your taste is WRONG WRONG WRONG, of course ;) )

 

I still think it's good that the movie made you read Hellblazer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heh. This much is true. And honestly, I really, really enjoyed, say...four out of the six or seven total I ended up reading. I mean...Dangerous Habits is just brilliant. And maybe reading them all together wasn't the right decision, because they get overwhelming. (I read a lot of books with gore in them, but seeing them depicted artistically makes a bigger impact on me. That swimming pool full of corpses in All His Engines (?) followed me around for a while.)

Can I consider myself a Hellblazer fan if I only like some of the books, plus the movie? And more importantly, is there a nifty keen handshake and membership card?

New member here - dipping my toe in the water with an exceedingly long first message.

I had vaguely heard about the Hellblazer books, but never read them until discussion of the new movie came out, and somebody was bemoaning the fact that they didn't cast Sean Bean as the lead. As a Beanophile, I darted out to the bookstore and had a look. I ended up reading Son of Man and one about a female ghost(Haunted?), and enjoyed them both, but I didn't embrace them, exactly. So when I went to the movie, I was still pretty firmly in the Not Familiar with the Comic camp.

It's funny - while I loved great swaths of the movie, especially the final setpiece with the suicide and Satan and evilevil Gabriel, and adored Tilda Swinton, Peter Stomare, and how Keanu looked, even if not exactly how he acted, I didn't fall in love with the movie. But it was very visually exciting, and I find that it's kind of taken over my brain now.

In keeping with that, I went back to the bookstore and read a slew of other Hellblazer books. And...had to put them down. I really, really enjoyed some of them - Dangerous Habits, obviously, plus All His Engines, and parts of others. But unfortunatly, my taste in comic art is about 180 degrees opposite the majority of Hellblazer art. And...I couldn't really stomach a lot of the plotlines. I never thought myself all that squeemish, but after reading through four books, I was tired of vomit, entrails, brains, and corpses of various states of decomposition on every page. So I think that although I admire a lot of the graphic novels, I ultimately prefer the take on them that the movie does.

Uh...please don't stone me. This is actually one of the rare times I prefer a movie over a book format, and no doubt this is retribution for all those times I've ranted about idiots not understanding the source material. And although some of it is a "ooh, Keanu, pretty!" reaction, a lot of it is that the movie pushed a lot of my buttons and the books did not because they were simply too hardcore. I suspect the closest I'll get to embracing the spirit of the graphic novel John Constantine is Pete Wisdom, from the X-Men books (he seems to be essentially patterned after JC) and I'm sure this will merit me another hail of rocks!