Jamesb

"What I do disagree with is that they've opted to not put it out in any of the trades that have collected Ellis' HB work. But that they didn't publish the story at the time, I completely understand."

Yeah, man, Talk about a missed marketing ploy! All of us anal "Hellblazer" fans who need to own every J.C. apperance would've had to shell out more bucks to get a Trade full of stories we already own in order to get that one Special Bonus story! DC messed up, badly!

yes, that would be a good idea, nice to have the comic published, rather than censored, but in another sense that would be worse. Business may be business, but I still see DC in a poor light over their decision to pull this comic. So much talk about creators, and art, and litreature, and yet none of the integrity that should go hand in hand with such notions.

jamesb

there is an interesting article on Silver Bullet Comics about shoot, no idea how old it is, but I can agree with many sentiments therein:

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/pb/96781316033684.htm

jamesb

a quote from the webiste....

Conclusion Two: We are so frightened of negative publicity, we don't want the mainstream media to even know we exist. Instead of reaching out to the mainstream, we just want them to leave us alone with our ever-decreasing fan base. Please just leave us our comics, we seem to say. I find the attitude to be one that is slowly but surely bleeding comics to death. Maybe SHOOT wouldn't have been the story we wanted to show to the mainstream, but surely we need to tell them that comics have grown up and can handle controversy. Maybe others don't agree with me, but I am tired of seeing the industry dying because we're afraid to reach out to a mainstream that may well reject us.

Did they discuss it with Ellis at all when it happened?  Or was it just done "behind his back?"

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I honestly dont know.

There was an amicable agreement between Ellis and DC, but he left the title, lemme have a look...

Jb

I apologize James.

 

I think he (Jamesb) was quoting me.  Except I didnt mean it the way he sounded/posted it to mean. 

 

When I said you had spoken for the majority, I meant that a lot of posters in this site did not like the movie because Keanu's character was a far cry from the character JConn in the comics.  It is, I agree, but it does not make my appreciation of the movie less....

 

If he read my post carefully, he would know I came on this board as a result of the movie and have bought both comics (which are difficult to find in the local stores and I do not like shopping on the net) and trades if and WHEN I could find them.  I certainly like the movie (Hagren will bear me out on that one) and I certainly like Keanu.  In fact, I noticed him, and started watching his movies only after his JConn characterization, however inexact it was.

 

Guys, you all rock. You always try to explain, and it is nice.  (Nice is such an inadequate word"

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I doubt you were speaking for the majority GenGris, as I said in my post, its fair to describe what you percieve. My point, and I am sorry I used your quote, to make it, is that people do refer to 'everyone' or the 'majority'

sometimes its used to sway argument, rather than any true discussion, sometimes its a genuine reflection of what one has read of seen, but thats my opinion. Its good that you have come to the comic what ever route you have made.

I just think that the vitriolic negativism on bahalf of fans of the comic about the movie, although perhaps to be expected, misses the point.

Of much more concern, should be the decline in figures, the threat of cancellation, and the discussion elsewhere about writers proves that people are thinking about the future writer which is mch more worthy good stuff.

The Movie had benifits, its aobviously brought new fans to the comic, and for that alone, I welcome it. I didnt walk out, or feel it was atrocious, I enjoyed it, when seen alone. I recognise the points james has made, they are fair and true I supposse, I am just not passionate enough about the comic to get so hung up about the injustice of such a poor movie adaption.

I just feel that I can somehow seperate the comic from the movie, suspending belief perhaps, and enjoy the movie for what it is, cheap entertainment.

Of course, its a regular thing with adapations, like daredevil was a bad adaption, as were the later batman movies, havent even bothered with the fantastic four or Hulk. Spiderman wasnt bad, Batman Begins was OK, and I absolutley adored Sin City.

Crikey, give Miller constintine anyday, his direction and honesty to the core work, was seemless.

I dont feel antagonised, rather, I may be offering a differing opinion, and if that seems challenging or somehwhat cheeky as I put my opnion to people, well I am sorry about that.

it is after all, a discussion, and I am reading what people say.

Jamesb

TORSO, gosh, forgot about that, a really great ead, although I loved the untouchables, and felt some sort of familiarty with Eliot Ness.

well worth reading.

J

'The only mistake the editorial bods made was letting such a wafer-thin non-story slip through quality control.'

I would have to disagree on that one, to be honest. I read shoot and i thought it was a good story, IMHO. I think it was a panic appeasemnet action by DC. Schoolyard shootings are nothing new in the US, and snap decisions that follow them equally.

The Boomtown rats song, I dont like mondays was banned on many US radio stations because it was about a school shooting also. IN fairness Geldof wrote the song immediatly, I think it might have got to No 1 in the UK.

In fairness, the comic was due out about six months after Columbine, although I have to admit I am unsure about the esact timing, as Ellis' final issue was december 99, so maybe shoot was planned before it, or perhaps after, either way I dont think its that immediate after the event, really.

I just see it as DC being crap, you see it as Ellis being crap.

My opinion also about DC's lack of courage, is somehwhat tainted by this episode, I suspect, but then, I generally have felt a lack of direction at Vertigo for a while.

In saying that, I am enjoying DMZ and Loveless, and looking forward to Sgt. Rock, and have read many DC comics, I just am not instilled with confidence, that DC are in any way couragous..

jamesb

No one speaks for the majority...

'James gave the majority assessment of the site's denizens.'

was quoted in this thread

and previously I have seen people quote the majority feeling, and I mean recently. I think you will find that people on this forum, will envoke the majority opinion in order to strengthen their own stance, which is fine, but something I think is wrong.

Or perhaps not. If I read dozens of negative posts about the movie, which I have, then it would be fair to say that, and its a fair perception. I still don't think its furthers any discussion, though.

I thought your comment was sarcastic, actually, - lovely people - well if thats what you genuinely ment, fair enough, I apologise if I had it wrong.

but I perceived it as sarcasm, elitism and patronising, how would you know someone was lovely anyhow, its clever use of language and to be honest, I wonder how someone who actually got into the comic because of the movie would percieve it.

But, if I am wrong, and you genuinely think all the people who got into the comic were 'lovely' thats fine, I am sorry.

Jamesb

Interesting opinions.

as I said, I await and see, but just because Mina has written books of similar ilk, does not nessacarily mean the comic will be great

Of course, perhaps I am wrong, if some people feel no matter who writes, and how poor the writing is, if its still a constintine story its great, well then, thats an opinion I would havce to disagree with. I will wait and see.

I genuinely think, if I were an editor at Vertigo, and I could do as I wanted, I would ask Bendis, I have not been let down by either Powers or Daredevil.

Millar, well, i love The Ultimates, its a great title, Most wanted was excellent and really I would love to see what he could do.

Its not about being a crowd pleaser, its about being a Jamesb pleaser, and by that I mena, its what I would like.

After all, Elllis, another writer I eally enjoyed, essentially was censored by the all couragous DC for a story about a school yard shooting. Has anybody actually read Hard Time 50 to Life by steve gerber. The stench of hypocrital appeasement is rife from the managament of DC on that one.

Sure, by all means, lets see what Mina has to offer, but I honestly wonder if its that Brave. I dont think so

Jamesb

Well people have made it clear they both dislike Reeves and also the movie.

Maybe you have read amongst the vitrol, some positive aspects and opinions.

Of course sales, or Gross doesnt nessacarilly make a good movie or product.

BUT many more people went to the movie, than read the comic book.

Many more people read the comic book than come onto this forum.

Therefore, the continual negative opinion about the movie, which - gosh I remember Reeves being announced, that was some thread, must be years ago - is unsurprising considering the constituancy that discusses the matter.

It should aslo be noted that other posters have 'spoken for the majority' and therefore must feel hapy enough and confident that here, on the forum the MOvie falls foul of approval.

I am not so sure hard core fans would care about the readers who came due to the movie, and its born out by a comment from James.

which is a shame. Getting people into comics, is crucial, IMHO

Jamesb

Hiring an authour with a track record is good, I agree, and as I said, she needs to have a fair shot.

But Bendis has done something amazing with daredevil, a comic no one would have reckoned could escape the shadow of Millers work on the title, and to be honest may be its equal. Hiring the likes of him for Hellblazer, that would be couragous, as its gonna cost, and thats also a form of courage on behalf of the editors.

I think increasing numbers is not the main thing, but I do feel that hellblazer deserves a quality of writing and artwork that it has lacked. I also think that sometimes, but not always, when a story is great, it may increase sales.

If Mina doesnt do anything amazing, there is no loss, the titles at 14,000 so what.

I Hope she can delever though.

Ennis' first US comic was hellblazer, so there is a track record of finding new work, but I think right now the comic needs more than a new writer.

James

I enjoyed the movie.

I just had to seperate it from the Comic, which I love, but thats cool, as its a movie and many movies rarely do the job the Sin City or Lord of the Rings have done. In fairness I would love to see a proper TV series, done on the scale of Band of Brothers, now thats the way to adapt a book.

Many people obviously enjoyed the movie, and have been turned onto the comics by it, I know of one person, at least, personally who enjoys the current run of hellblazer becuase of the movie.

I notice that some people speak for the majority 'here', but then here is a fan forum of the comic that was loosely used as a basis for the movie, so is it a surprise that people here dont actually find favour with it.

Adrians points are very erudite and excellent, but probably unnoticed by the people who paid the $70,000,000 which were the US box office figures after 5 weeks. Even at 10 dollars a ticket, thats 7 million people, who seem to have paid for a ticket, which is about 3 times more than the cost of a comic, and only 14,000 comics sell a month.

The worldwide gros was $229,500,759, which is a shed load of money, I have no idea how mush the movie cost, and how much money Warnr Bros made. But tahts a lot of people voting with their feet.

To be honest I even thought a bit of effort was made on the comics side, with graphic novels and the such released to tie in, but then I think hardcore readers might actually be offended by the thought that Keanu Reeves and his rendition of Constintine, may have brought new readers to the comic.

Irrespective that this, may have offset the steepness of the decline in readers of the comic, people will dislike it, becuase it isnt true to the vision that they themselves would like to have seen, which woul have been closer to the comic, and in all honesty, after Sin City, obviously not that bloody difficult to do.

admitting that the movie may actually have been an enjoyable movie and that its actually helped the comic, well thats not so easy.

J

I am afraid that Mike Carey has done a 'Paul Jenkins' on me.

I enjoyed the comic, with Ennis, Ellis and even some of azzerello, but Carey turned me off. I may give it a go again when Mina takes over.

Strangely, I have gotten two new readers into constintine during Careys run, by suggesting ennis GN's and they naturally starrted picking up the title, so it may be just my taste, but I will be glad to see someone new along, who will hopefully do something about the dismall ever decreasing figures.

It does appear I am not the only one.

I wonder about Mina though, like why not Mark Millar or Brian Michael Bendis or a writer who is well known, and can produce the goods.

I cant judge a book by its cover, so will let Mina have a fair shot, and hellblzer has been cutting edge at times, allowing many a UK creator a shot in the US market, so will wait and see, but somehow feel there is a lackof vision.

J

NIce

If nothing else Brighton looked like a proper con!

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Yes, doesnt look bad at all, am mighty sore that I missed out, but such is moving country.

Theres even a girl in the pictures, gosh....

Was there any night time entertainment? apart from socialising in the bar?

j

Howya GenGris

Good time to start, Hagren has reccomended what I would have in actual fact.

I started on Hellblazer when I was 16, so your ahead of me.

I think one of the key things is to look at the writer. I have found that once a particular writer 'clicks' for you, that you may have good luck with what ever else they do.

Its a generaliation, and of course not 100%, but a good way to find more comics that are enjoyable.

Here, you will find that mostly everyone LOVES John Constintine, but many dislike various writers. In actual fact, HATE has been used on occassion, but one cannot really hate an authour, rather their work.

anyhow, great comic to get into,

what else are you reading?

what got you into Helbalzer?

Jamesb

Not bad, at all. That sounds good.

which pub is it?

I nearly know most pubs in Dublin, going to take some time getting used to all the new places and pub names.

thanks

J

ool, and whats the deal with this meeting then?

do you have guest speakers or is it juts pints?

J

There's a Thursday meet that I occasionally go to but they started turning up later and later.

 

Join The V here

http://thevhive.com.temp.omnis.com/

shortly to change to here

http://www.thevhive.com/

 

and then I'll introduce you to the Thursdays if you like.

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Thanks Adrian, have joined up, is the velvet a geek thing or comics, seems a bit non specific, which could be a good thing, mind.

J

I know I know, I just type to fast or something, althoug its how my UK mates say I pronounce it anyhow.

I am moving to Croydon, a pretty girl has got me, shes now on my avatar.

Met her at a convention lasy year, and we been going out since, bloody great fun.

She reads books, a lot, but has read and loved Preacher among other titles and is now on V for Vendetta...

Also, one of the best and most kenly priced comic shops in london is in Croydon, and the owners are really really nice. A Place In Space.

anyhow am looking forward to it, comic marts, closer to conventions and I ahve many good friends over there as it is.

Of course, I will really miss my friends here, and I think the lads in Sub City, been going in and out of there for a long bloody time.

are there any Comic orientated Pub Meets I wonder in London?

j

Sounds Good Adrian, sorry I had to miss it.

Yeah, Glenn Fabry is a decent fella, actually I ahvent met many people in the trade who aren't decent to be honest.

Nice to gear the venue was suitable, thats always a problem IMHO for comci conventions.

J

Maybe, havent had much luck with the morrison issues yet, but will be in the right place for back issues soon enough anyhow.

J

Anyone go then ?

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No, my plans came apart, but it now seems I will be living in London, from next week, so wooo-hoo for cheap comics.

always bristol....

J

sometihing to think about then, might pick them up, is morrisons run nessacary too for the story?

 

As far as I'm concerned, Moore's run alone is "necessary",

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thats what I would have thought too, bit am willing to give them a try if they are cheap

james

Righto....

only two... gach.

sometihing to think about then, might pick them up, is morrisons run nessacary too for the story?

Jamesb

Never realised the Mark Millar did some swamp thing, to be honest, aftr Moore I havent read any, and I only look at them, cause of the excellent John Higgins covers

so, Mark Millar - any good?

on swamp thing, cuase Ultimates rocks!

Jamesb