Christian

What was Poul Anderson still writing in the 1980s? What did Isaac Asimov always write?

Some of those older writers had trouble evolving their skills, obviously. Heinlein wasn’t alone.

Also, don’t forget that Kim Stanley Robinson rewrote Moon during the 1990s as his Mars trilogy.

That’s almost the entire basis of 90% of science fiction. A few brave real men who are smarter than everyone else head out to solve a problem by using their genius-level knowledge of science.

Hell, it was engrained in sci-fi by HG Wells, whose technocratic elite will take over control of the world for its own good...and all the sheep will immediately fall in line, and realize it was best for them...with only ignorant religious people standing in their way, who will have to be eliminated.

Starship Troopers is simply pro-fascist. There’s really no subtext to it.

No, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is pretty much exactly analogous with the American revolution.

A handful of rich, white males-most of them slave-owners-who are smarter than everyone else, but being held back by the fact that they were not born aristocrats, decide that they will launch a revolution so they can show the world what a small-government sovereign nation can accomplish without the big-government colonial British telling them how to live their lives.

There’s no “entrapment”, everyone born in the US will recognize the plot quite readily as one that speaks to what we learned in American history class throughout school.

Heinlein wrote the book while he was reading Lysander Spooner. Thanks to that, while the book was incredibly boring, the ending was pretty good.

The libertarian revolutionaries discover that their dream of an utopia was a failure, and the free Moon has become just another nation-State.

L. Neil Smith did a better job using Spooner’s ideas though. Heinlein’s book is a pretty typical Golden Age action-adventure plot about space colonists trying to escape the tyranny of an imperial Earth.

Anyway, the point being, none of those fit the criteria of a “pariah elite”. A pariah elite is a gifted minority who are persecuted by the majority and so must hide themselves from the wider culture, even though they are truly superior.

The “People” stories fit that mould, the X-Men comics are definitely that, Odd John by Stapledon, Smith and his Church start out in that role when they face persecution in Stranger.

I’m not sure if the other examples really count as a “pariah elite” though.

You certainly may have the advantage on me by having read more Heinlein than me.

But, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress isn’t an example of a pariah elite, nor is “Coventry”.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is a pretty typical sci-fi conceit about colonization of other worlds paving the way to new freedom struggles and new attempts at ways to organize society. The same theme is found in LeGuin, Brunner, Joe Haldemann, Samuel Delaney (countless others)....

Heinlein’s example is very much based in American history. The Moon as originally a penal colony for convicts is analogous to America being used to ship Britain’s undesirables out of their country.

“Coventry” is elitist, but not an example of a “pariah elite”. The main character is cast out of the wider society because he doesn’t want to conform, then there’s the twist ending. The wider society is shown to actually be utopian, after all. It doesn’t fit with later Heinlein’s views, which he changed after WWII.

The same is definitely true of Farnham’s Freehold too. It doesn’t fit the theme, at all. I did try to read that novel once, because I heard it was a paean to slavery, and wondered just how fucked up Heinlein’s fiction got after his paean to fascism (fuckin’ Starship Troopers). It’s not that, but it is a highly-dated routine plot with unnerving racialist tones, and I couldn’t be bothered with it. It seems like typical post-apocalyptic survivors fiction, that you could find much better from Poul Anderson or even Edmond Hamilton.

No, I haven’t read all of Heinlein’s fiction. I’m not that much of a fan of his writing. I mainly enjoy Stranger in a Strange Land and some of his early short fiction, which was purely fun with big ideas (like “By His Own Boot Straps”).

I just know that Stranger in a Strange Land was the Heinlein story that most prominently used the concept of a “pariah elite”, which is what you were discussing. That is a novel by Heinlein I’ve read a few times.

Also, I’m pointing out that Heinlein’s views weren’t as elitist as someone like HG Wells (post-The Sleeper Awakens anyway). It’s not as if sci-fi writers seeing themselves as elites and holding elitist views is a product of a certain time-period or a certain ideology.

Thelema IS pretty elitist.

You need to read Stranger in a Strange Land again, I think. It’s not Calvinist, but Christian. Everyone has the ability to evolve in to Homo Superior, but some will reject the new faith, and therefore not be saved. That’s Christian, not elitist.

What I have read out of what you list:

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is basically a retelling of the American Revolution on the Moon with Earth in place of the British.

Also of note, when Heinlein wrote “Coventry”, he was still a FDR “New Deal” supporter. So, that’s something to keep in mind too.

In conclusion, I’m not saying that Heinlein didn’t present unpalatable ideas at times, or that he wasn’t elitist, but I think you seem to take Heinlein out of context.

Yeah, there’s certainly nothing in Henderson’s fiction to give that idea, and the “People” series does read as a society based in acceptance, but I know that homosexuality is heavily frowned upon by Mormonism.

Granted, not everyone who is a Mormon thinks the same way, but Mormonism is a hierarchical faith.*
I somehow doubt with Henderson’s age and her seeming conservatism that she would have gone against the elders to agree with a person living an “alternate lifestyle”.

Those Mormons who are gay or who believe in gay rights are a small minority.
I know that openly gay members are forced to either accept psychiatric treatment or be excommunicated from the Mormon church. If they want to remain a member, they must agree to be celibate.

*I mean, that is basically the way that Mormons ended up gaining acceptance in America. Republicans went from persecuting Mormons to figuring out that Mormons vote en bloc, so reaching out to them would end up as a good way to ensure votes.

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Also, if you’re referring to Stranger in a Strange Land, I think you’re doing a disservice to Heinlein’s thought.

His views are much more based in humanism or liberalism than someone like HG Wells’ “utopian” vision of a World State.

It’s not the Church of All Worlds starting pogroms, it’s the accepted organized religion (with some hints that it’s meant to be a corrupt form of Christianity to be replaced by the new faith, as Christianity came to be seen in relation to Judaism and especially paganism, but is much more acceptably to be read as a thinly-veiled Roman paganism playing upon the historical persecution of early Christians) doing that to Smith’s followers.

Heinlein is saying that Smith’s vision for the world will become so popular and accepted that those who refuse his vision will eventually die off.
Also, remember that Heinlein was simply rewriting Christianity using (mainly) Thelema as the “true faith”.

I don’t know that you can even read the novel as that of Heinlein’s own views (although he obviously put some of himself in to the novel with Jubal’s speeches), so much as Heinlein being interested in Jack Parsons’ views at the time.

Yeah, I’d describe “The People” series as Little House on the Prairie featuring aliens.

Henderson was a Mormon, and she based the stories on some of her experiences growing up in a Mormon community (only with a SF veneer, obviously).

At times, the schmaltz-factor could get annoying, but the idea of aliens trying to hide themselves from the world in the American west is a pretty tried and true plot device. 

I also found it quite interesting that LGBTQ people have found a lot to relate to within the “People” stories, considering the Conservatism of Henderson’s beliefs.

I guess it makes sense in the same fashion as LGBTQ people have always been drawn to the X-Men comics, along with other people who feel like outsiders in society.

Also of note, Henderson’s non-“People” short story, “The Anything Box”, is a really strong purely-fantasy story. If you haven’t read that one, try to track it down, as it does some of the same things as the “People”, but the writing style is better.

X-Men Legends is a new non-canon continuity-minded comic scheduled for February.

Past X-writers will return to finish a story left dangling when they left the title. Most of the dangling sub-plots were probably finished by later creators, but this series features a story-arc resolving the past story with the writer’s original intent.

First up, the revelation of who Fabian Niceza actually planned as the third Summers brother.

I don’t have a lot of interest in this one.

Ed Brubaker would eventually create a new character, Vulcan, to solve the mystery (which wasn’t much better than Adam X even with Brubaker writing); but this story will reveal Niceza’s original plan for the brother. Rumour was that it was either going to be Gambit or lame early-‘90s d-lister Adam X.

Upcoming stories include one written by Claremont. It will be interesting to see which dropped plot-thread Claremont is going to reveal.

Hopefully not something crappy left over from one of his many returns to the X-books.

The mystery of Nightcrawler’s parents would be a really good one. Maybe Marvel can treat that one as canon and ignore Chuck Austen revealing that Azazel, the mutant devil, was Kurt’s father...

Mystique as Nightcrawler’s father while Destiny was really his mother would play a lot better in 2021 than during the ‘80s. That was one of Claremont’s plans nixed by Shooter that I thought would have been great to read.

I bought Throne of the Crescent Moon by Saladin Ahmed. I’m including it in this thread because it was originally supposed to be a series, but since the first book came out in 2012 and no others have followed, it seems that this series will remain just the first book.

I’m pretty sure that it can stand-alone, although Ahmed was setting up plot-threads to pick up in later novels. So, I wouldn’t call the book “unfinished”, and it can still be read and enjoyed on its own. That’s what I read online. So, if I finish the novel and find that the ending it’s left completely open-ended, I’ll have much greater complaints.

I wanted to read it because Ahmed writes for comics now, and because he is from Michigan. Apparently, his father was a relatively well-known labour organizer in the area around Detroit.

The fantasy world is based on Persian and Arab folklore, although the plot and writing style are pretty typical of “sword and sorcery”. It’s the setting and themes (many, although not all, of the themes are based in Islam) that set Ahmed’s fantasy apart.

Plus, I’m finding Ahmed’s writing compelling, so I’d say it’s a pretty decent example of the sub-genre.

Sanders supported many of the same policies that working class voters supported under Donald Trump as against elitist Hilary Clinton. Sanders came with the added bonus of not also being a fascist and being a Social Democrat instead.

They weren’t really voting for Trump so much as they were voting against Clinton, no. I never said otherwise. I, in fact, said the opposite. That swing voters who tend to vote Democrat voted for Trump because they were so sick of the Democrats’ corruption.

Do you really see these types deciding to vote for fuckin’ Ted Cruz though? They would have sat home and refused to vote.

Also, you can see people on the internet saying that they “ held their nose” and voted for Trump because he was a better candidate than Clinton, but they think that Sanders would have been a better candidate than Trump or Clinton.

Sanders might not have won, there’s no way to know that. Sanders appealed to working class voters sick of names like Obama, Clinton, or Biden. In the same way that Trump managed to appeal to them, in a way that other Republicans have failed to do.

Trump managed to lose many of them when he was proven to be lying about most of his campaign promises, but there was still more working class support for Trump than a typical Repub in this election, as solidly working class districts in deindustrialized sections of the northeast (Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Minnesota) were still showing a lot of division between Trump or the Democrats.

Meanwhile, all the middle class Liberals who said that Trump was the “worst thing to ever happen to America” would have to vote for Sanders, because they would have no other choice. Otherwise, they’d be proven to be the elitist hypocrites that most of them truly are.

Plus, much like Trump got people on the far Right who never vote to turn out and vote for him, Sanders would get far Left people who refuse to vote to turn out and vote for Sanders.

So, overall, yes, it seems that Sanders would have done a lot better than Hilary, whose platform was “Were the past eight years really so bad?” and “How about some more wars, guys?!”.

That’s about it, yeah.

I can’t believe the rose-coloured glasses Liberals have about the Obama years.

On the other hand, the same could be said about Republicans and the W. Bush years after Obama got elected.

Thankfully, I got reminded of the W. Bush years far too often with different decisions made through eight years of the Obama administration.
Oh wait, no, I don’t mean “thankfully”, I mean tragically.

Oh, cool. No, Jason. It was never reprinted before. I’ll check it out later, thanks.

Yeah, I’m so sick of the partisan bullshit and the hypocrisy from both sides of the political establishment.

Russia didn’t fucking rig the election. They put out propaganda in favour of Trump, but that’s hardly “interference with an election”. Alex Jones was putting out the same information. People who knew the “conspiracy theories” were bullshit ignored the crap, while those who believed the “conspiracy theories” were already people who wanted to support someone like Trump.

The Democrats couldn’t deal with the fact that a lot of people were sick of their shite after Obama turned in to “George W. Bush with a human face” and Clinton was even worse, so they had to make up excuses and (ironically) conspiracy theories of their own.

The only difference was that a biased mainstream media (outside of the already biased FOX News) decided to treat those conspiracy theories as factual.

That’s why I am only interested in groups like Socialists and libertarians, who tend to rise above the partisanship and can admit that both Trump and Biden suck, each for their own reasons.

I think it’s too bad too, because at one point, under George W. Bush the American populace was starting to become united under the idea that almost everyone hated the W. Bush administration (something like 16% approval at the end of his presidency).

The US might have been able to move on from the corrupt system we have in America.

Now, here we are in 2020, with America more divided and partisan than ever.

The saddest part is that Obama could have done so many things within his eight years to stop the rise of Trump, and he refused to break with the neocon legacy. Paving the way for a populist cult-of-personality candidate to swoop in.

Also, Biden is talking complete bullshit blaming the division on Trump. It existed before Trump, as just look at the Obama administration. There’s little doubt that Trump played to the divisiveness for his own benefit. These people aren’t suddenly going to flock around Biden though, and the divisiveness will very much continue under Joe Biden.

Unless drastic changes are made in America-some that will be opposed by Democrats others that will be opposed by Republicans and some that would be opposed by both of the Big Two, I don’t see the United States remaining one nation far in to the future. The same fate that befell the USSR and Yugoslavia could very easily happen in the US. All the pieces are glaringly there. Sadly, I don’t see even 90% of the changes that are needed being allowed to happen anytime soon.

True. At the same time, Trump had the highest approval rating amongst Republican voters of any Republican since parts of the Reagan administration (his approval rating was very uneven). He held a pretty steady 93% approval rating among Republicans through most of his term, only slipping after the pandemic.

Trump also got a lot of swing voters to support him, working class voters who usually support Democrats, but had gotten so sick of the Democrats’ corruption that they were willing to support Trump over another Establishment candidate.

They would have voted for Sanders over Trump, but were sick of bureaucrats like Obama, Clinton, or Biden....they just happened to be even more sick of Trump in 2020 than they would have been with Biden back in 2016.

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The far Right Trump supporters don’t support the Libertarian Party either. You think that these types are reading Ayn Rand books, like the Libertarian Party candidates?

I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016, over Donald Trump or Hilary Clinton. He was barely an actual libertarian, but was better than Mussolini-lite Donald J. Trump or “Let’s go to war with Syria!”-Hilary.

Most of them admitted that they had never bothered to vote in a federal election before Trump. They were people who would have voted for David Duke back when he was getting elected on the Democrat-ticket in the south.

I know. Most of the Republicans are not part of Team Trump. They’re the same old Red Team that has always been in office.

They repudiated Trump when he was first running for president, because they believed the crazy guy quoting Mussolini had zero chance of winning, and were afraid he was going to smear the Republican name.

Then, as soon as they figured out that Trump was very popular with their mass base, most of them decided they were Trump fans too, even though most of them don’t share a lot of Trump and Bannon’s views*.

*There’s some overlap, of course, but just in the sense that Conservatism and fascism are both on the Right-Wing end of the spectrum, like how there is some commonality between neoliberals and Socialists, even though they don’t share a lot of the same views.

Even Trump’s biggest cheerleader in Congress in recent years, Lindsey Graham, only started to back Trump as a way to keep getting re-elected. He started out as a Romney-type Establishment hack, and when Team Trump declared war on him, he decided to start kissing Trump’s ass to gain more support in his home state. He never changed his opinions. He just decided it would be easier to act like a spineless jellyfish than to risk angering Trump and his supporters. He saw his approval rating in South Carolina go up after he started to praise Trump.

Trump, himself, cares very little about ideology, as long as a person kisses his ass. So, it was easy for the majority of Republicans to not become slavish Trump supporters but to stay on his good side by verbally kissing his ass, for their own gain.

Then, people like John James (not in Congress, but ran twice in Michigan now), who started out his career by saying that he was loyal to Trump and would support him, switched to trying to distance himself from Trump this past year, after Trump’s approval rating took a hit.
So, even some of the actual Team Trump in office are probably typical Republicans who were just trying to take advantage of Trump’s popularity with Repub voters by play acting, rather than because they wanted to see America embrace the alt-Right. Like, does anyone buy that CIA-lackey Mike Pompeo truly buys Trump’s agenda versus Pompeo just wanting to keep his job?

There are three stages of Republicans in office currently. The old guard neo-cons, who were around when W. Bush was in office, and they to seem to be still the majority. The Tea Party hangers-on, like Rand Paul, who came around during the Obama years. Then, the most recent, Team Trump loyalists.

Apocalypse looks like a left-over Kirby design, especially with the purple.

Mitch McConnell says he is prepared to lead the Senate in confirming or rejecting Biden’s nominations for cabinet positions.

So, it appears the world is moving on while Trump and his cronies continue to whine. It doesn’t look like the Trump Team is being taken seriously any longer.

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Why the hell do Liberals want Biden to nominate Tammy Duckworth to become Secretary of Defence so badly? And, why are they acting like Senate Republicans would never allow it? She seems the type of moderate liberal that Biden and McConnell could both find non-threatening enough.

She voted against actual progressives in Congress wanting to massively shrink the US’ “defence” budget.

Sounds perfect for a Biden/McConnell compromise choice.

I also picked up The Troll Guide by Anders Skoglind. It was published by Dark Horse, so it belongs in this section. Skoglind is an illustrator from Sweden.

I don’t know, it just looked cute to me, and I’m an amateur folklorist...these types of books tempt me.

I was disappointed, as the backmatter says that it covers “other beings that can be found in mountains”. I realize that the book is meant to be humourous, but I expected that it would cover beings from real-world mythologies. I haven’t gone through the entire book yet, but it looks like the creator mostly has made up his own fictional beings.

I don’t know, overall, whom exactly this book would appeal (at a price-tag of $20, American). I guess anyone looking to discover a Swedish comic artist.

Ah, but wait until you get to the first appearance of Tyrant. There are few things that scream 1990s comics more than Marz’ design for Tyrant.

Actually, that’s a good point. Team Trump immediately stated that “dead people cast votes for Biden”. I don’t believe that could be proven, no.
I’ve been living in Canada again for over a year, so I’ve forgotten a lot of things. heh Maybe I’m wrong with the following.

I don’t believe, because it is a secret ballot, that anyone would be able to tell who voted for any candidate, no.

That means that, technically, you can also not strike out these illegal votes on a recount. You wouldn’t know which ballot belonged to said illegal voters.

I guess if you could show enough irregularity in the voting process, the election would have to be taken to the Supreme Court for a decision.

I mean, every democratic election is going to have some illegality. It’s impossible to avoid 100%. Anyone will admit to that.

Still, four (or whatever) votes is hardly a smoking gun that is going to switch an election’s results.

So far, the only sources where I see “widespread fraud” being reported are from people involved directly with the Trump campaign, Steve Bannon, Michael Flynn’s lawyer*, and (for some reason) Nigel Farage (even though he’s not even American).
Socialist web-sites which refused to support Biden (not wrongly, I would say) are reporting that Trump is trying to steal the election. I mean, I wouldn’t want to allow democracy to be in the hands of the ones claiming “widespread fraud”, considering their obvious bias.
 

*Speaking of her, you want to talk about David Icke’s Reptoid conspiracy, he needs to be looking at her. She looks exactly like a snake/human hybrid. Creepy!

It didn’t take long for people to start losing their minds.

On Monday, people (other than Trump) seemed like they were being calm about the election result.

Now, on Wednesday, the insanity has started to take hold.

YouTube went down for an hour Wednesday night. It didn’t take long for Right-Wing conspiracy theorists to jump up and claim that YouTube went down to hide the videos showing that there was widespread fraud in the election.

So far, the only actual allegations I have seen is Team Trump making an unsubstantiated claim that four dead people voted in Georgia.

Apparently people have told Trump that striking the mail-in votes isn’t legal, so now Trump is stuck jumping on other claims that the election was stolen.

It must be sinking in for Trump’s loyalists after a few days that they aren’t going to invalidate mail-in votes and that the Supreme Court isn’t going to jump in and give Trump the victory.

Hellboy and the Seven Wives Club-Gah, we waited an entire year for this comic, and that was all we got. I don’t know how this took an entire year to finish, Covid or no Covid. It was already three months late when the pandemic got really bad.

There is barely any dialogue. It took me maybe five minutes to read. Five minutes for five dollars equals a dollar a minute.

The story was really disappointing too. Instead of the special feeling Mike Mignola Hellboy one-shots like we’ve seen recently, it read like a typical Hellboy and the BPRD story.

Really disappointing waiting an entire year to see this book.

Well, I guess we’ll get another Hellboy comic next month (unless it ends up delayed). It’s going to be a sequel to the story where Hellboy met the Romani people.

Ohh...not any of his kids. Please, no. If there’s anything worse than Donald J. Trump, it’s Trump II: The Spawn of Trump.

Pence would be a typical Repub. Maybe Biden will be dead or institutionalized by then, so we can get Kamala Harris against Pence.

I’m not wishing death on anyone, I’m just saying Joey B it is certainly within the realm of possibility that he could be dead within four years. I don’t think Harris is a great candidate, but I’d much prefer Kamala Harris over Joey B.

Trump says he may consider running for president in 2024.

Umm...So, is Trump admitting that he lost the election, or does he not realize that if he is still president (as he keeps claiming) that he cannot run for a third term?

I can see the Republican primaries in 2024, with Trump trying to sneak in to the debates in disguise.

”Hey, is that Donald Trump? Get him out of here.”

Seriously though, can there be someone who doesn’t have dementia running for president again. We really don’t need more records for “oldest person to ever be elected president”.

My two cents:

I hated Bendis on X-Men.

I think the original five X-Men disappearing is because they are about to spin off in to their own series, All-New X-Men, which will replace Uncanny X-Men.

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Yes, second volumn of Silver Surfer was great for about the first fifty issues. Englehart’s best work after the 1970s, and Starlin did some really nice cosmic plots during the short time he stayed on the title (outside of the cross-overs).

Starlin drops the title pretty quickly and Ron Marz takes over for an extended run. Marz’ run wasn’t bad either, although it had quite a bit of that early-‘90s flavour to it. It was a big step down after Englehart and Starlin.

Maybe Trump will just keep staying in the White House after Biden moves in, and they’ll turn this in to a new sitcom. It could be like another The Odd Couple remake.

”I’m still the president, Joe.”

”No, Don. I’m president now.”

”Nuh-uh. I am, Joe.”

”We’ll just have to agree to disagree, Don.”