Ixnay by Night

I have to agree, Carey had the best finale.  While Jenkins had my favorite run in total, I always felt his ending fell flat, if an appropriate and necessary difference from the scorched earth of Ennis' final arc.  I've always had a soft spot for Delano's ending, too, with John essentially just disappearing into a cave and leaving his supporting cast wondering what the fuck just happened.

I'd actually place Ennis closer to Clive Barker, in that they always show the monster/gore/horror instead of letting it be more implied.  I'm one of those "it's scarier if you don't see it" types of horror fans myself, but Christian is absolutely right that the splatterpunk type of horror is definitely what was hitting big in the early 1990s.  Delano was more unsettling, Ennis was throwing buckets of blood at you and slicing up people's faces with box cutters.  Neither is wrong, both can be considered horror, it's all in where your preference falls.  

And I like "Diary of Danny Drake", I've always felt it was one of the better self-contained stories that Ennis did (though again, how much of that is down to Lloyd's artwork is certainly a consideration). 

I dunno, Ennis could bring the horror when he wanted to, like "The Diary of Danny Drake".  That one is still pretty chilling, especially with David Lloyd's artwork on that final page.

Thanks guys!  Yeah, he turned two back in May, and has definitively proved that the "Terrible Twos" does indeed exist.  We had stair gates put up for awhile now, the tension kind that just use pressure to keep between the walls, and he figured out that he could just tear them right the fuck down and jaunt back and forth on the stairway.  So I installed metal gates that are screwed into the wall, with hinges and a lock...and the little guy just crawled under them.  

I suppose Ennis felt he really needed to emphasize the HELL in Hellblazer, what with the Christian mythologies taking precedence.  There was the Lord of the Dance, as an example of a non-Christian myth being appropriated for the series during his run, but even it was tied back around to Christianity stamping out all other faiths.  Delano, on the other hand, got way too heady for my taste during his run, to the point where stuff like "Sundays are Different" is near-incomprehensible to me.  I think that's why Jenkins is my favorite writer on the series; while Delano was all brain and Ennis was all heart, Jenkins was a perfect distillation of both approaches.

On 9/23/2017 at 2:27 PM, Christian said:

I'm not really sure what you're looking for in comic books, but a lot of the newer Marvel stuff isn't worth reading. Most of the newer Marvel titles that are really good are ones that flew more under-the-radar, rather than their more popular books (like Avengers or X-Men*), and definitely not their "big event" cross-overs.

*Grant Morrison on X-Men from way back in 2001 or Jonathan Hickman on Avengers being the most notable exceptions.

Also, avoiding most of Millar and Bendis' work at Marvel is usually for the best, although they did each write a few books worth reading (Bendis on Ultimate Spider Man, Alias, and half of his run on Daredevil, or Millar's Ultimates).

I enjoy older Marvel Comics, myself. I am a huge fan of Marvel from the 1960s through the 1980s. I'm not sure if that's to your tastes or not as a comic book reader though.

Yeah, the more isolated stuff is the best for recent Marvel (and I say "recent" meaning the last 10 years or so, I guess).  Ellis' Moon Knight, Jason Aaron's Ghost Rider, Ennis' Punisher MAX (and Aaron's too, yeah), all quite good.  I really dug the short-lived Mockingbird series by Chelsea Cain, too.

34 minutes ago, Christian said:

I don't know....It is sort of the Punisher I know. I know that Ennis decided to take Castle in a different direction*, but really, the character's whole raison d'etre is the police aren't doing their jobs effectively enough, the justice system is hand-tied by rules that prohibit it from effectively enforcing "law and order" policies, so he's out there fighting the Vietnam War against domestic criminals. That's pretty much fascist ideology. That the liberal State has hand-tied people from effectively enforcing the laws of the land. The fascist State isn't hamstrung by the "rule of law", and fascists can have the State do what Punisher is being forced to do as a "one man army".

The fact that most of Marvel's superheroes have had to stop a crazed vigilante gunman who feels "he is the law", because "heroes don't kill" pretty effectively should be seen as a commentary on the Punisher.

*Even Ennis' Punisher wasn't supposed to be seen as heroic, if you consider the plot of the "Born" mini-series, where Frank Castle doesn't ever want the bloodshed to end.

Although, I agree that coming out saying that the Punisher is just a fascist is a character killing moment.

I can see all that, but Secret Empire itself gave a totally different rationale for Frank joining up with Nazi Super-Terrorists.  He told the Black Widow that Cap was going to use the Cosmic Cube to bring his wife and kids back to life, and that was why he joined up to hunt down superheroes for the regime.  Frank Castle, who once burned his back-from-the-dead-family alive b/c he didn't want them involved in his war or used against him, was given that as his motivation in Secret Empire.  That was such a massive mis-read of Castle's character, I slapped my forward in disbelief when I read it.

And, while everything you said about the Punisher is absolutely true, Christian, he's also a character who sees everything in moral absolutes.  Hydra was a terrorist organization responsible for thousands of innocent deaths (if not a lot more) not just throughout modern history but also just in the run up to seizing power over the country.  He didn't join up with Normal Osborne during "Dark Reign", and that was an even less morally-dubious scenario.  I just can't cotton to him joining up with any larger power to direct him, he's too independent for all of that.  In the first arc of the MAX run, he wouldn't work with the CIA to hunt down Bin Laden b/c they got their funding from heroin distribution.  Then Spencer has him join fucking HYDRA.  

Gah, sorry for the rant.  I'm turning into Warren Ellis.

Christian, your point about the Punisher is probably the most damning part of Secret Empire as far as I'm concerned.  All of the other heroes that sided with Hydra had a hand-waving explanation (Thor conflicted about Mjolnir and worthiness, Scarlet Witch possessed by Chthon, Vision infected by a virus, etc...), but the Punisher straight up became an SS stormtrooper of his own free will.  That's not the Frank Castle I know as a character, and he's walked away from that crossover even more damaged than Captain America.

That's very true, but in most cases (thinking mainly about Transmet) the ranting was at least in some service to a story.  "Shoot" was shoehorned into a series that it didn't belong, even with the hamfisted justification for Constantine being involved at all.  "My mate's son was taken to America, got shot in a school, RAAARRGGHH!".  

Not Ellis or Hellblazer's finest moment.  Had it been released as planned, it would have been a mite bit controversial but ultimately a small piece of a much larger run.  Banning it from being published built it up into this mythic thing that it doesn't deserve to be.  

I did finally finish this fanfiction story, with large chunks of it rewritten, last year.  It's all up on fanfiction.net now, along with the first couple of chapters of a sequel story.

John Constantine, Hellblazer: Children of the Grave by Chris Munn

John Constantine, Hellblazer: Coffin Nails by Chris Munn

I don't get to game much anymore, even though I have a nice X-Box One system that my wife bought me last year for our anniversary.  I did pick up Injustice 2 and have been playing it when I have free time, it's why I like fighters so much, I don't have to invest an hour I can just jump on to play a few matches whenever I have a free moment.  I was surprised by which characters I've gravitated to on that game, not as much into Swamp Thing or Doctor Fate as I thought I'd be.  Black Canary is my most-played, followed close behind by Starfire.  Not too thrilled by the next DL pack, though, they can chuck Raiden in the rubbish bin for all I care (though there is at least a sweet Black Lightning skin you can get for him).  Here's hoping for DL pack 3 to have some deeper DCU cuts.   

Fine lookin' youngster you got there, Lou!  And yeah, they were real close, my son was born May 12th 2015!

Very much so.  Lou, if I remember correctly, wasn't your kid born around the same time as mine, back in 2015?

Here's a recent pic of my son, Johnny, and I.  Excuse my red Devil Eyes, I had corrective muscle surgery in both eyes a month ago, and I was still recovery when that shot was taken.

Anyone been reading the Trinity series?  John has been a big part of the last two issues (the second one came out this week) as part of the magical counterpoint to DC's Supes/Bats/WW "trinity", along with Deadman and Zatanna.  The writer is Rob Williams, who I'm unfamiliar with outside of a really dreadful run on Ghost Rider a few years back, and the art is by Generic DC House Artist # 49.  Thoughts?  It's certainly a solid DC superhero comic, and I like the emphasis on trinity pairings (Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman; Bizarro/Red Hood/Artemis; Constantine/Deadman/Zatanna).  John's characterization isn't great, though loads better than his last go-round with Justice League Dark.

I can't imagine Marvel ever referencing the events of "Secret Empire" again, because it radically changed the landscape of the entire world so drastically that putting things back to normal would be a massive restructuring lasting for years.  Las Vegas was destroyed, the Black Widow died trying to assassinate the leader of the country, and Ultron is apparently creating an army in the Arctic.  Not to mention that, by all appearances in the story, most of the regular citizens of the United States were just peachy with Hydra running things.  The whole story left such a bad taste in my mouth that it's totally disinterested me in Marvel Legacy.  I plan on picking up Spirits of Vengeance and Iceman, maybe Moon Knight if reviews are good, but otherwise it's just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic for me.

Yeah, I'd say "Shoot" was Ellis editorializing, because its really nothing more than an angry soapbox rant with John as the writer's stand-in.  I don't think it was particularly engaging as a story, like someone said earlier in the thread it's not really a Hellblazer story in the traditional sense.  Lovely art by Phil Jimenez, though.

17 hours ago, seventhcircle said:

sooo i just wanted to update.

 

i have been depression free for over a year now. it was a lot of work and stuff, but it worked out wonders :) i have seen my therapist not for the last 2,5 months and still going strong. just wanted to let you know :)

 

also thanks for the reading and answering when i had to vent and complain, it sure did help. i really like this forum :) (whereelse can you make jokes about playing poker with gods, analyze an obscure comic that has been dead for almost four years, talk about personal stuff and get new insights on a variety of completely unrelated things :D)

That's great to hear, I'm glad you're doing so well with your depression!  I work in the mental health field, so knowing that people are actively engaged with recovery and getting a positive benefit from therapy is a wonderful thing.

As for myself, I recently took on a new position at my organization, a non-profit that works with adults diagnosed with serious mental illnesses.  I'd previously been a Health Advocate and Case Worker, now I'm the Program Manager for a 24-hour staffed group home.  I've never been a supervisor before, it's a bit intimidating being a boss, lol.  On the homefront, I'm still happily married, with two eight year olds (one foster, one step) and a 2-year old son that takes after me in every way, good and bad.

I also want to echo what seventhcircle said about the forum.  I don't post on here regularly, I tend to do it in bursts where I'm really active for awhile and then gone when life gets too hectic to keep up with my online presence.  But I keep coming back, not only to talk about a comic/character that I've grown up with like family but b/c all of you gentlemen and ladies have always been so welcoming and god damn interesting to talk to.  Cheers!

14 minutes ago, dogpoet said:

That said, I really couldn't have seen Ellis doing a Freezes Over or Hard Time, and it wouldn't have been beyond him (having quit the book in a tantrum over having an ill timed, but far from brilliant story pulled) to produce something over a forty issue run that made all that made all of the dogfucking and sweetly musky balls nonsense look like The Dead Boy's Heart by comparison.

That seriously just made my day, thank you!  

25 minutes ago, Christian said:

The story actually wasn't very good though. It may have made a few good points, but the fact that the story ends with a student telling the gunman to shoot him was probably something that DC rightly worried about following the mass-school shooting.

The problem with the story is that it really wasn't a John Constantine story. He was just there as window-dressing.

It's not as if the story was a lost classic.

I'm sure keeping Ellis around would have been better than Azzarello, as I did enjoy most of what we saw of Ellis, unlike my feelings for Azzarello. Although, maybe Ellis would have gotten bored in the middle of his next story-arc and moved on to other projects, and we'd be here bitching about how Ellis did that again, this time on our favourite comic book creator.

Maybe if we go to an alternate reality where the "Shoot" controversy didn't happen, Ellis would have lost interest in Hellblazer half-way through his next story-arc, and Vertigo in a panic to find a new writer (as Azzarello would be busy now) has to stick Chuck Austen on HB. Maybe the fates were in our favour and saved us from something far worse.

 

Also, welcome to new Forum member. It's nice to see that some people are still discovering John Constantine.

Had the Ellis of 1999/2000 already started the trend of abandoning projects halfway through?  Planetary was still going on a relatively regular basis at that time, he saw Transmetropolitan through to the end, and had only recently finished his long Stormwatch/Authority run.  In a few years, yeah, then came the Ellis with the attention span of a gnat, but late 1990s Ellis I think would have stuck with Hellblazer through his planned 40-issue run.

That said, though, I totally agree with you about "Shoot".

10 minutes ago, seventhcircle said:

totally. i really think he was right to go. as far as i understood it: he basically told a story about how badly society treats it's youth and how horribly it could go wrong. and then the shit happens close enough as he had described it in a fringe horror-book (and propably no other published wouldve greenlighted this anyway). he must've felt like a fucking prophet and then dc takes that away from him for reasons of decency. the guy must've been fucking pissed.

I wonder, had DC agreed to pull the issue from the publication schedule with the promise that it would be printed at a later date, once the freshness of Columbine had faded, would Ellis have stayed on the book?  I mean, even he surely must have recognized the incredibly poor timing of the comic's release, through no fault of his own or the publishers of course.  If Paul Levitz hadn't stamped a D-Notice on it, publicly stating "Shoot" would never be published as long as he was running DC, maybe they wouldn't have lost such a high-profile creator at the start of a long-term series run.

I will say, after Azzarello's run finished, having Carey on the book was a huge breath of fresh air.  I loved the majority of Carey's run, and perhaps the plot-driven aspect was simply an aspect of the comic medium at the time.  You're right, though, Carey DID have a lot of characterization for John and the cast throughout his run, he just didn't give us stories like "Forty" or "Undertow" during his run, and those are the types of stories I dig the most in Hellblazer.

Yeah, quite nice!

Ellis was such a missed opportunity.  I thought "Haunted" went on way too long with too much early-2000s padding for the trade, but stuff like "The Crib" and "Telling Tales" were quite good.  I wouldn't put him up with Jenkins, though, that cat was my favorite writer on the series.  Still, I'd love a glimpse at the alternate reality where "Shoot" was published as intended and Ellis had his 40-issue run on the book.

4 hours ago, JohnMcMahon said:

Now that's more like it.

To be fair the one in my original post received some praise on Facebook so maybe it's just an old man thing!

I don't think its so much the art on that one but the colors, with all the pastels and such.  Makes what could have been an interesting design into an eyesore.