lady_constantine

Cool idea. Will look into this after re-reading some more hellblazer to keep it fresh.I recently dipped back in while awaiting the new stuff--certain details stuck out more than others,but i will need a refresh.

Please excuse me for my late introduction.

 

My name is Tairon Cutiva and I am from Colombia, I am an aspiring comic artist. I am a fan of Hellblazer. Please to meet you all.

sorry for the late reply,but welcome! good to see more fans coming out and an artist at that.nice:)

well yes, the raping of Gemma was definitively too forced and i could make a list of argumental mistakes commited by Milligan, and yes, he commited the worst crime in literature and comic: to force a history, and yes, the chapters from 250 to 300 had too much mistakes and failures, but also had some aspects with great potential, so I could give you this crazy idea: what if we make the exercise of remaking the history in this forum?

i think remaking a history would be rather fun idea :) why not?

--nah...was definitely an author desire thing ...never said she couldn't be younger--but that was too young and left field and was the ultimate jail baitwait..and the factshesoon hooked upwithfinn--actually,if they were together for a shorter time andshe skipped out on him with Finn soon after...yeah,but it screamed dirty old man fantasy--. I also think Finn could've been an interesting and well written character and --hate me for this--next in line to be 'the laughing magician' .

as I said before,one of the things about milligan is that by the time he got to constantine,he was at a period in his life where he should've at least been wiser about his decisions[julian...especially julian] and gemma....and if thatevil constantine is part of constantine...is he trying to imply john wanted to fuck his niece/hated her for whatever reason? i did not get that part...and then that was what led to his demise or whatever happened at the end? i

felel like the end was very anti-climatic.

i feel like miligan had some neat ideas but poorly executed.

Now, if you ask me about characters as Julian and Finn they were just character fill, so they were indeed the worst failures of Milligan and they would not be missed

you are correct.finn was unnecessary and a plot device and julian? that whole situation was wtf. honestly,if piffy wasn't just "john's girl", and written better ,i would like her-- she would also have to be at least 40..i highly doubt john would chase a girl the same age as his niece,that is creepy,really creepy,considering how close he and gemma were,no especially if he knew piffy as a kid,that is just sick.i mean,john is a pervert ,but that was a hardcore jailbait wait --and knowing some creepy details about astra--i don't think he would be able to go through with that.

also,milligan ruined gemma.period.that shit was sacred and he just did whatever.milligan's run was just--it was out there

Pfedor, your viewpoint is very interesting and makes very sense, but i don't entirely agree. More for sentimentalism and charachter evolution sense than any other motive.

 

//Spoiler: I'd like to think that John really cared about Epiphany, so he decided that she didn't have to keep following his way of doing things. About Terry Greaves, remember that the relationship between Piff and Terry at that point were too destroyed, so i doubt that Piff would care about her father being reclaimed by the Devil (Is too much name him TFoTF :v ). Now, I have another theory that implies that John learned some humility, but I must admit that your theory makes more sense, so I am divided in two. Now, remember that the Devil told Piff about a great plan he had and he needed Terry for that plan, maybe John proposed the Devil of a more efficient way of making that plan (maybe even offered him some help and advice) and that for the purpose of taking revenge for Terry beating Gemma.

 

Now, I completely agree with your notion of the open ending, in fact, I also thought of this, and more with the poor decitions that had been made lately in Norteamerican cómic in general, but I really loved the charachter of Epiphany, so I'd like her to fight for the love of John (Yeah, I am a romanticist) so i'd like you to see a proposal I made for future chapters of this great history: http://hellblazer.ip...showtopic=10513

right,north american comics are a screw up lately--at least the superhero ones,Only comic with supers I'm reading now is Planetary and the capes are in the background here.I read mostly non-DC Marvel stuff now.I am about to get into Transmetropolitan and I love Rat Queens--

As for Epiphany Greaves,WHY is no one else creeped out that John met her at 10 years old and decided to fuck her and marry her? Also,she is a blatant mary sue even though she was hot .There was nothing more special about her thanhis other love interests except they tried hard to make her fit and Milligan likely wanted to fuck her.

One thing I hated so much about Hellblazer was all the self insertian.Period. Alot of the writers used John Constantine to be vicarious and I think that a problem with the character/series

I always liked that John was an older guy though. Maybe it's because of my own age. The idea of John on the internet or with a cell phone just seems wrong to me. I guess to readers younger than me, though, it seems weird to read about a guy who doesn't have much knowledge about any of that technology.

There's an issue of Planetary by Warren Ellis (if you haven't read that series yet, I highly recommend the first three TPBs, as it's some of the best comics ever, in my opinion) where he has an homage to John Constantine, basically saying that the character is still living in the 1980s, and was never brought forward in time. You might find yourself agreeing with that assessment, and this was written in, I want to say, 2001.

In all honesty ,if they wanna bring it up to day,maybe they should leave JC alone and take it to the next generation maybe? Idk. Rose constantine was his daughter in injustice--I don't seewhy a series about her would be a bad idea,with John hovering around ocasionally or something.

And I have heard of planetary-will look into that for myself as a birthday treat :)

 

Taking this conversation back to HB, since that's where we're posting, I found the current incarnation of Constantine: The Hellblazer so devoid of any political content. I was surprised to see people claiming it's part of some so-called Left-Wing political agenda, just the fact that JC was portrayed as openly bisexual. I can only remember one issue of the series dealing with any actual political content. Compare that with Jamie Delano's run on Hellblazer, which was so overtly political. I could understand people on the Right maybe feeling negative about the Delano Hellblazer. Yet, it was this depoliticized Constantine: The Hellblazer, with its portrayal of John, that led to so much backlash about a "political agenda". I find that absurd.

Instead of considering a Left-Wing that tackles real issues with radical proposals, the concept of diversity has become considered a "Left-Wing political agenda" in today's climate[

very much true.that is another thing that has been missing from hellblazer and constantine as a whole--the fact that john is a "working class warlock" and for the people.not touched on just the fact that he is openly queer,which in today's world makes perfect since for him to be so.i also fail to see an alleged politicak agendas--that also discounts all the right wing and central lgbt folks.if "caitlin" Jenner is anything to go by ,queer does not mean leftist.and in all honesty if it had an agenda,it might have even been a better read.

one thing about old hellblazer [mostly delano run though and a few others,kinda fizzled out by milligan to my understanding of the bit i read and as sick as it was,azarello's run had shades of it in the background or at least aknowledged the existanc eof racism and such].

nowadays,it wouldn't be weird to see a modern john hanging around on forums having a conversation like the one we're having now. I think maybe the character didn't age well ,like superman didn't age well--i think it's clever how marvel pulled the 'man out of time ' thing with captain america especially the movies,it was quite a brilliant idea.

The same issues apply to all areas of Identity Politics as you bring up about LGBTQ peoples though. There are African-American people with money. The experience of African-American females could be very different than the experience of African-American males, which may be very different than the experience of an African-American gay person. A woman CEO's experiences of gender would be very different than a poor woman's experiences. Then, we don't even cover other areas of disadvantage, such as mentally ill or physically handicapped, which can very much be a white male.

 

I don't disagree that racism exists in society, and affects certain people very differently than the majority. Systemic racism is a very big reason for why there is so much poverty among African-American and Latino populations in the United States. However, most of these issues stem from the State, which enforces draconian criminal laws, that are used to perpetuate the racial divide that was once enforced without any denial by Jim Crow laws. Then, the State passes welfare legislation, which keeps these poor people dependent on that same State, while a certain section of the political elite uses those self-same welfare legislation to stir up hatred and resentment against racial minorities in this country (even though there are plenty of poor white folk on welfare as well).

The prisons are stocked with racial minorities who committed non-violent crimes, and that's not because minorities are "less moral" than whites. The State enforces draconian laws which make it very hard for a person who has been in jail to get a job. The system is very much stacked so that it is incredibly hard to ever get out of poverty.

This systemic racism can be traced right back to the Civil War, when African-Americans were screwed over by the government after the war, as instead of being given ownership of the land that they and their families had worked for years, which by all rights the land belonged to them, the African-American population in the south, with nothing to their name, were forced to leave for the north in order to find jobs, as that was all the industry was located. That was the birth of the ghetto system.

So, more African-American people were starting out in abject poverty.

 

The upper class has feared one thing in the United States for decades, and that is, yes, very much indeed, poor minorities and poor white people forming an alliance against the wealthy elite. The elites mission has been done to do everything to keep the two sides divided, and not seeing their common interests. Hence, you have poor white people voting overwhelmingly for Republicans (seemingly against their own interests), while poor minorities overwhelmingly vote for Democrats (which have proven to offer nothing more than band-aids and false promises for poor people).

This much is all true.And you will be surprised how many of these neo-liberals and false leftist have no knowledge of and disregard such information.And trying to get out of poverty-ugh! it is like a catch 22! I need a bank to loan me some money to go to college [pay a debt] and since I don't know anyone above a certain income level [urban area,I'm black so most people I know live in said area are black and are at only a certain income level] can't get said loan--that would help me get through college and get a higher paying job to pay for this tuition and any debt incurred--feel like my life is screwed [made worse by the fact I'm just startingto recover from a bad injury that lasted years due to crap medical care no coverage and all kindsa foolishness]

I'm a young woman so I'm new to this adult thing and I am realizing how much the system is stacked against the have nots vs the haves. When we walk the cities and see who's living in what conditions ,this is a system from generations,tracing back to the early years of the nation.

As for politics,I think there needs to be a point where the left vs the right thing has to stop [i think the right needs to not exist anyway,but that is opinion]. I had always thought it was a paradox for the underclass whites to vote republican,that just seems plain foolish to me. That's what I mean with the overseer-sndrome thing :whites have been taught to value their whiteness above all [which only real value is being able to thrive in certain climates like every other race--matters little when you can live where you want now],even their well being.

And yes I agree that these wannabe democrats keep comin' with bandaids and first aid kits,but ain't nobody ready to perform the surgery needed to fix this mess.

But in the states,that's the way the system is,the party syste, which I think is flawed,made worse in this day and age with the media and all that. When we live in a world where there are people actively voting for someone like Donald trump to be our president--ugh! I've been debating for years if I should defect to the UK,but the break from the European union and other prvious issues...how is that affecting you guys anyway? Anyone from across the pond can give me the word on the climate over there nowadays.?

I think we have to remember what the Left was originally meant to be about, which was economic issues. Class issues and anti-war were the original hallmarks of the Left.

The focus on equality...your personal wealth shouldn't give you a priveleged position...opened the door for equality in other areas to be considered Left-Wing issues, such as race or gender or sexual orientation.

However, I'd say that Idenitity Politics has hijacked the Left. In place of equality for all people, political correctness has taken the place of issues which were the original purpose of the Left....class and anti-war.

I don't believe that issues like racism or sexism should be the sole purview of the Left. I'm sad that these issues have become so politicized. God created all people, so it's sickening to see people on the Right, which is supposed to be the purview of organized religion (another thing I find sad), treating people differently based on race.

I have little doubt that both sides of the Official political parties have come to use these issues to divide the masses, and distract people from the elite. That the Official Left (neoliberals, Democrats in the US) appeal to poltically correct language and the right to abortion as a way to get votes, just as much as the Right panders to organized religion and anti-immigration to manipulate the masses. Not that a woman's right to an abortion isn't an important issue, mind.

Meanwhile, corporations gain ever more power, while millions are fed to the war machine.

Here's the thing--I'm gonna have to agree to disagree about the racism part.

over here in america ,race pays a large role in class.Essentially people of color were up until maybe 1990's second class citizens.We take pay cuts here for being non-Caucasian and for being females.There is also the fact that after World War 2 there was this mass hysteria to create suburabn sprawls and "the great white flight" and segreggated housing based on race.Race determines your life in america,how quickly or how easy or difficult it is to obtain ctatus and wealth. Same with sex--laws governing women we get lower pays,less promotions therefore affecting our ability to obtain a higher class,unless we marry out of class.

-Race has to be important because race is essential in maintaining social class in america.It goes back to slavery days with "overseer syndrome",which plagues our american police force and underclass white americans,particukarky in the south .But not just black people,but incidently whites,particularly whites of Irish American descent--they were undermined for the longest until around the post prohibition era.But due t them being held back for generations that is why they are most of the white underclass, and that is why people of color are underclassed and it is in effect today because money passes down by generation.

Here is how overseer syndrome works:Instead of helping poor whites,the upperclass turns them against everyone else so everyone stays poor ,them as well,and they get a handful of perks "for whiteness" ,that may or may not [usually don't help] end the cycle of poverty. Essentiall,The Rich [and mostly white] would do this-they have a whole loaf of bread to themselves,give a slice and a half to poor whites,a slice to blacks,half a slice to latinos and around that amount to everyone else. The lower class will be like "Why do I have one slice of bread?",and the wealthy whites sould say"well,we had to give them a slice too.If we didn't have to give it to them,you'd have more",which is bullshit because the wealthy [mostly white---mostly because they are all NOT white] are sitting here with damn near a whole loaf of bread. So yes,racism SHOULD be a core part of Left politics.

It aligns with classism and even poor american whites began to realize this at some point--the black panther party was destroyed because get this guys --it was NOT just about black people! It was about equaity for ALL. There weresupporters from all over the world,other races,whites,latinos asians,it was a humanity thing and not just a race thing , black vs white like people claim.

It's just in america,alot of our most powerful and revered rights activists states side were black people and they lead the way for other people to unite.If all the races unite in amercia,the underclass will overthrow the upperclass and that is a VERY dangerous thing.hat is simply what it is about,all about greed.

As for these "neo liberals",many are in fact racist and classist and hell,support war anyway,so yes,it has been somewhat diluted from what it was and the anti-war thing has mostly fallen off anyway in this 'age of terrorism'---which is a whole other discussion in itself.I am ironically one of the few liberals who is anti-war as war destroys lives and lines pockets.Most liberals are like "support the veterans",which I agree--but if you didn't go to war in the first place,these veterans would not have be suffering nor would their families,so there's that.

I do agree though ,that feminism should be in it's very own sphere and shouldn't even be political as it is.Feminism is more of a social issue than any thing as women have obtained for the most part,the rights of men.This is an issue of social norms and societal pressure,more so than actually political.Same with sexuality--though I agree same couples should be given the same legal rights as het couples.

[also -STOP lumping LGBT tgether as it implies we are this loving united front ,when GAY WHITE men WITH MONEY are the ones at the forefront.SAME issues as the rest of society,so get that shit outta politics unless it's marriage and employment related.Queer people are mostly liberated,gotdamnit,it's just straight people don't like us and alot of queer people don't like each other either]

and finally ,political correctness. Being black and underclass,i have a rather different perspective the term.I believe it is necessary...however,the issue I have is people trying to be politically correct to cover their asses.There is a such thing as a politically correct racism and it is alive and well in america and most definately with "leftists".I agree,it should not be used as a mask to cover other issues --said issues being actual racism,classism and poverty,period,which incidently all are tied together in a giant cluster-fuck conspiracy to keep the world like pyramid--all those at the bottom supporting the few at the top while being stepped on.

I wasn't wild about this thread continuing, since it could easily turn into trash-talking someone who isn't here, but I'm glad it was you doing it, LC. It's possible that it's as simple as you not being a straight white male, but your angles on things are always interesting. Plus you write long posts so it's kind of a feast.

 

I also think you've also found a point of agreement: the idea that a lot of left-leaning is bogus, and just for show. This is definitely true, and it's just as definitely the reason for anti-left sentiment. When people rail against political correctness, it's usually because they find it dishonest, and a lot of the time it is.

thank you and glad we see eye to eye.it's like the false leftist thing is like the elephant in the room no one talks about,it is in fact a very real thing.

okay---so 2 topics to cover

1)leftist politics and comic readers and 2)Johny constantine being queer/bottom

-keep in mind ,I am black,female,non-heterosexual and leaning left so i have a unique perspective

Comics and leftism-

-I think a lot of comic readers of this era wanna be leftist--but the level of sexism and racism that exists in the American comics indicate elsewise.I think maybe some are "left center" at heart as we know the core audience is straight white males that can actually afford to buy them.As such,people have grown up reading comics for straight white males,by straight white males,about straight white males[i am not in anyway slandering the majority of straight white males I know are on this board,but there is a certain power to this status].Thius while many people claim to be 'leftist' the blatant sexism [which has been thank good toned down since the New '10's] undercover racism [wally west being a black kid from questionable background--that was some bullshit--oh so now he black,he gotta have problems? Fandom liked to assume white Wally had issues,but damn--why confirm it with black Wally?Damn!And then had Barry play 'mighty whitey'NOPE] .

Anyway,the main audience have at time protested to race changes or adding characters of other races and are comfortable with white men as the main points and characters of their storylines and their white world--also the fact that the main heroes [looking at DCU ] like Batman and Superman-upper eschelon white people who only know other white people [for the most part,there are exceptions].Really beyond Amanda Waller and possibly Renee Montoya,and Damian Wayne [mixed] ,and Victor Stone--what important non-whites exist in DCU who are NOT c-listers on down?

Leftist? Nah...too comfortable with the status quo to be leftist.Left-center,thank you.

Marvel is another story though.

Marvel's racial/gender diversity blended much better.Examples like all them female Miss/captain marvesl [only one of said women bein white],Rhodey had always been the number one person in tony's life and is with the military ,not some thug or anything,Marvel even delves into racism more and have A and B-list characters who are females/different ethnicities .Emma Frost,often times defacto leader of The X-men,Storm,aka Ororo Monroe had been A-lister from back in the day black AND female.War Machine [b-lister],Sam Wilson [A-list,in fact he is captain america now and had always been not just steve's partner but HIS FRIEND.Yes he talks to sam wilson outta costume,steve sam and bucky like to hang sometimes--there was a time along time ago when some ol' dumb shit happened,but for the most part--it was cool --also see the Captain america sagas--black captain america and Patriot a descendant of his].

In the case of DC vs Marvel? DC Left-Center and Marvel actually leaning toward the leftism that is alleged [also,higher quotient of LGBT and specifically BISEXUAL characters than DCU last I checked ,especially dudes,definately more queer dudes---off the top of my headnon- het characters- most of the Young Avengers lineup ,and then we have Richter and Shatterstar Daken,Mystique,Spiderwoman and this is not naming all the 'maybe but not confirmed' characters and the Ultimate universe

so marvel likely truly leaning left

-Then we have Image and Indie comics that run the gammut of whatever they want ,definately leftist territory.

However,here's the kicker

Because it is more socially acceptable state side to lean left,alot of people "pretend" to be leftist when they are center or DL right-wingers.

Yup,I said it.

It's like how the KKK are so obssessed with hiding their identities and how sexist pigs tend to be internet thugs or live in mediums like COMICS and ACTION MOVIES where they think women don't tread.Same for certain industries.But your actions tell all and some comic fans are not leftist.

Also,it's a bit more socially aceptable to lean left here stateside--except trump supporters.

The thing is,alot of people don't wanna admit to being right wing or centered--so yes comic readers tend to claim to be leftist because it's a left scene--politics can go in trends.

=========================================================

Now "Queer Constantine"

-And constantine being queer and a bottom.Two things.1? not the first time he has been a bottom-i am more at least a thousand percent sure he was the bottom between him and nick necro [which i think that bothered people aLOT on a subliminal level.This was the first time john constantine was pretty much known to have genuinely been running with some dude and not running a long con].Also with the azarello thing,john may have been kicking manner's ass--but john visted an SM club and was letting people put their paws on him which essentially 'bottom' is more pasive in that culture.If a guy ties you up and slaps you and demands you give him the D--you are still his bottom.Because John is queer and into S&M his definition is different than what yours may be.

-Essentially John would likely be bottom/switch,likely switching by partners or he can adopt the life style of a good handful of bi-guys who would bang women but often/always bottom to men sexually which is surprisingly normal,like the ones who love women but love givin out BJ's.

This fear of John Constantine loving cock ,and being a bottom comes from descrimination against the D-takers in the gay community.Men who recieve are seen as 'lesser' than the givers,some of you nutbox closet cases even thinking it's not gay if you don't take the D,which is rediculous--a top would be more of a homo or just sexually ambiguous for reasons i'm not explaining now.

Amd do you know where the hatred of bottoms come from !

That's right kids,sexism!

Penetrative intercourse=feminine=weak.

Fans of conjob can't conceive that this masculine,badass,chain-smokin' ,half drunkard,badass ,mofo who got 'the bitches' was probably sucking the sausage in a bathroom stall somewhere at some point in his life,giving out and recieving handjobs and likely enjoys getting his back blown out ,while tied to a bedpost.That is just dis-servicing John Constantine ,slandering him for his sexuality ,being gay straight or otherwise and I do not support anyone who thinks in such a close minded manner.Big thumbs down for you Ranja. I have nothing personal at stake here,but you gotta take this L

nu52 was generally a fuck up.period.there are those who slandered the Constantine comic of nu52,but i think the only thing it really lacked was 1)the lack of personal in depth look at John constantine ,it was all too vague.though i do like the idea of the cult of the cold flame setting john up for failure---even in his originial hellblazer incarnation,john fucked up with Astra...becasue he was trying to do the right thing ,the wrong way.i think a lot of writers are seem to lose that bit.john wants to do the right thing ---usuallly,but he keeps fucking it up,like failure is the only option.the only time i can say that john was out right mailicious wa sduring the azarello run --i mean yes,he did screw over his best friendgaz--but that was to save new york city.he DID stop the second coming by tainting zed---but bringing thesecond coming may have offset armaggeddon...which i don't think would've been good for anyone. he also started a bar fight with the first of the fallen (badass)so his friend could go to heaven earning himself a life of torment...if that ain't a sacrifice,i don't know WHAT is. I mean sure,he's cheated people out of money ,but what is that compared to saving the world a few time and averting serious fuck ups? and even when he does do some dastardly shit,he does have a sense to feel bad about it.that nu52 constantine lacked that preptual guilt of the hellblazer version--this guy was just...a bit too heartless.i mean constantine WASan asshole but an asshole and heartless are not the same thing.

what nu52 got right was john's amazing and uncanny ability to outwit people above his level quite easily-fighting smart ,not hard--which is what made nick necro a poorly delivered villain.it wasn;t the match of wits it should've been--nick was eaither beastmoding everybody or trying to get back with his exes---if it was like an L vs Light Yagami [deathnote] typ thing then YES,that would've been gold.Or conversly,Nick could've been fuck psycho from being sent to hell and could've been joker-level creepy,or like some of the worse versions of klarion bleak--

As for constantine:the hellblazer?? i doubt john would just screw some evil demon bitch for shits and giggles---do we remember how elle the sucubus from hellblazer had to help john out?yup,with John Constantine,you gotta pay for the D--then oliver...would've been better if he also turned out to be involved in the supernatural and even though john has had bystanders fucked over--after Astra ,he generally hadn't had too many kids in the freezer on his behalf.also...can i talk about how Neron and papa midknight were both disrespected? okay...really i am trying to find a decent point but its getting pretty hard to ,so i'm gonna drop it.

basically,i knew the reboot was destined to fail as they failed to grasp john

I think that writers miss the biggest point of constantine: sometimes to do the right thing,you gotta get your hands dirty...and sometimes get em' bloody.

again unpopular opinion:

I wanna see it in the nu52 verse

okay,unpopular opinion time:

Nu52 constantine was better.yeah,I said it.I've read both through and nothing you can do can make me change my mind.

come at me bruh

I told everyone that the new52 constantine was better than this and that was a bit lacking...I wantedto beliebve I was wrong but to my horror...I was right.Also...oh my god,the artist! and what have they done to my beautiful zatanna?! and why is she wearing that terrible outfit from JLD ?

I'm done....let us bury this fallacy and start anew

Age of Aquarius,anyone?

I hope so.sounds legit

The elitism I'm on about here is people refusing to teach what they know, and refusing to accept that people who have studied independently of them can know enough to be taken seriously, however much time and effort they've put into it. People who refuse to disseminate information in order to ensure that their chosen following are in a superior position to all of the scum who have to draw on other sources. Clear now?

yup.

said people exist.

i don't believe in this attitude ,because how do you keep the knowledge alive without teaching? ...but then again,many people do not beilieev such a thing.

however,curse and things,i understand not teaching toothers,that could be a problem.I shy away from anything other than mild hexes which are still scary because my soul isn't worth the price of vengeance; i can simply get street justice on that ass.i just made sure i knew pragmatic stuff like turn-about curses and protection during my run (thinking of getting back more heavily into the occult--life feels kinda empty without it)

and while one doesn't know what happens in the after life...i ain't takin' no chances

Well, you're missing my whole point, Dog. The point is exactly that you cannot do what someone is doing who has studied an involved system of magic for years just by buying a Book of Shadows or Necronomicon off the store shelves, and that's why so many people still don't understand the first thing about magic, even after reading all those mass-market books that promise "power" and "wealth" with a few simple spells. If you have magical knowledge, and you're using it to make money, then you've completely wasted all of any ability you may have gained through taking the time to actually learn magic.

That's why I have a problem with those type of spell books, because they're total come-ons, trying to lure materialistic, gullible people in to spending their cash, then expending a lot of energy for something they can do without ever buying a book of magic.

LaVey's system is based around the goal of gaining power and money, but it's the same thing you can learn in such "magical" tomes as Ayn Rand's entire line of books or The 7 Habits of Highly Successful People.

Like I said, if you want to understand magic, I'd recommend reading and re-reading Alice's Adventures in Wonderland before I'd ever recommend picking up Buckland or the Necronomicon.

However, if you want to become part of a religion known as "Wicca" or just want to pick up something fun, there's nothing wrong with picking up a Buckland book or the Necronomicon, just don't buy such books to learn magic. If you want to learn how to become a selfish asshole who spends his/her time looking down on someone for "attending public school", by all means pick up The Satanic Bible.

 

I don't understand why you have such a problem with this elitism. Do you have this same problem with ninjitsu? Oh, that damn old ninja master in his dojo, saying he's so powerful! Who needs that? I'll go to the store and buy books and teach myself how to do kung-fu! Look, I found a book that teaches me how to break a piece of wood with my hand! I'm learning to do that! Look at me now, I'm a ninja master now too! Ha, ha! I know everything a sensei can know now!

Is putting in time, effort, energy, and work really that big of an issue with you in life? Do you think everyone just starts out on an equal foot and can accomplish everything easily? Does it piss you off that a brain surgeon is getting paid so much more money than a general practitioner doctor? Do you think that everyone should just be a brain surgeon when they start out in the medical field, because otherwise, the brain surgeon must be some elitist who thinks he's worth more than a regular doctor? Don't you think it takes a lot of time, effort, and energy to learn to be a brain surgeon?

That's the whole point. If you want to actually understand something and be good at something, it takes time, effort, and energy. That applies to pretty much everything in life, whether the mundane or the supernatural. You have to put work in to something to get something out of it. Someone who has been studying something for 20 years is going to have more understanding and skill than someone who spent half an hour for the past five days trying to master something.

Do you really think Chaos magicians think that way? "Oh, I've been practicing this for 5 hours a day for the past 20 years, but that little girl just bought a Book of Shadows and went home to read it for 15 minutes. Now, she's at the same level as myself!". Of course not! Look at Grant Morrison in his "magical" feud with Alan Moore, where he says that he's been involved with the occult since he was a teenager, while Moore has only been doing this since the 1980s.

Can anyone pick up a spell book and use it to achieve something small, if they really want to? Yes, they can. If they think that's the entirety of what practicing magic entails, they're a white belt in karate. A white belt in karate is not going to have the skills and abilities of a black belt in karate. Those are just the simple facts.

i agre actually agree mostly...but being a heterosexual white male with cash gets you places.i never had the money to invest in the occult like i wanted too,from buying the proper herbs,or going to places to hand pick them (it don't grow near me,etc)...think about this...why do you think constantine wtarted out as a hedge mage and comes up with other ways around his spells (which sometimes back fires).you can have all the time and study all you want but some people are just naturally born with an advantage others don't have.who has the time,money and resources to get as much experience in as some people.

i also believ some of this is natural ability too...there are ghost hunters out there desperately trynna find spirits ,where as someone like myself can walk ina room and get hit by a bad case of vertigo (my mother is especially sensitive to these things) .Also both parents delt with the occult--that is an ADVANTAGE I have over others.the problem sith elitism is it assumes everyone has the same access to the same resources and has to jump through the same hoops.

and with occultism,it assumes that indivisuals took the same path and studied the same doctrine with the same religion,cult,etc,with practicioners on the same level of skill.

my first introduction was living in a haunted house...from there,listening to stories form my parents,to perceptions of strange things and living around santaria practitioners(latino neighborhood).Then I ran with aguy who was 1/2 navajo,and 1/2 african and began visiting a local occult shop .Things kinda dropped from there when my father found out and a lotta books got torn and a lotta herbs got dumped down the toilets...

also,how are we rating this? by knowledge alone...yes,experience is key (which is again a privelage because who has that kinda time in their life to practice,the money to buy what is needed and knows the right people)....so i believe that the only guage of this could be knowledge of the occult .and some kid who just brought a book ,can't top someone who had been digging around in it for decades....experience is iffy,because what if one person is a voodun practitioner and another does kabalah,and another is a shintoist? or what if someone is a master at divination (which i never practiced because i always believed if the most high wanted me to see the future,it would be and has been shown to me) or someone specializes in conjuration of spirits .What if

you're a jack of all trades,master of none?

Didn't Waite insist that Abraham of Worms had inherited Abramelin's book down his family line from somebody biblical? I was sure I'd seen something about him claiming that somewhere.

 

Lady C: it's surprising how many of the Psalms turn up in lists of curses and banishings, isn't it?

I know,right? I'm sitting here looking in translated copies of the sixth and seventh books of moses .It has the magical uses of psalms and there's an incantation to 'banish Leviathan'.and right after that one for getting vengeance upon one's enemies.

honestly,I never gave creedance to the Necronomicon because any and everything ovecraft related I reject as utter fiction.I honestly did have a christian/catholic slant to my leanings with hints of wicca and a touch of voodun /santoria here and there (scared people shitless with paper dolls and the like). Te idea of any of the Lovecraft lore being anything other than false seems absurd.Truly overrated--not to mention that the cthulu mythos was heavily symbolistic of xenophobia.

maybe being a black person gives me the sense to know better .

Only thing I currently have in my possession

is a book of incantations from the psalms and book of moses,

It seems to be that occultists like to postulate this idea that the world is run by secret lodges of white magicians and secret lodges of black magicians, with the two sides vying for control of human history. The writer, as an occultist, like to pretend that he's taking the side of the "good guys" in history (based on whatever his own beliefs happen to be), and that he's part of the struggle to save humanity from the evil black magicians. By creating a scenario where that was the case in World War II, with the Nazis representing a form of black magical order, it helps promote this belief in how history is shaped.

 

I agree that the idea of Nazism being all based in the occult is highly overestimating the situation, but I don't disagree that certain occult orders which were based in the Aryan race as a superior race whose mission was to cleanse the world for the sake of the deities had a role in the early national Socialist movement, before Hitler rose to power. It's also documented that members of Ariosophist orders were early members of the nascent national Socialist movement, and that some of the ideas proposed by Franz List, with his racial and cultural form of occultism, were very much compatible with Nazism. Of course, there were lots of other elements involved also.

Hitler, and most of his Nazi high command, seemed more concerned with materialist conceptions of history.

Himmler, on the other hand, was the guy who was really interested in the occult.

 

Goodrich-Clarke is at least more sensible with his theories than these religious Right types who like to lump together all forms of occultism as the exact same thing. So, Freemasons, the Golden Dawn, Anthroposophy, the Theosophical Society...they were all behind the Nazis! That's what the Nazis were....a bunch of homosexual occultists who worshipped Karl Marx! It's so insulting, considering that homosexual people, Communists, and members of different occult orders were all sent to concentration camps.

A simple reading of Nazi propaganda would show that the Nazis really conflated Jewish, Mason, and Communist in to one big conspiracy theory, that there was a conspiracy by the two groups to control the world, and that both are the creation of the "International Zionist Conspiracy".

as a forer occultist---i can assure the world is in fact run by power and money=power.

it;s just that some of those people turn to occult to help get in and shift things in their favor.Actual black magicans are quite rare- most people do the cutesy 'white magic' thing,neutral psychics,or they do like Constantine and dabble in both.it is noted,however,that many these people are NOT naturally gifted like Constantine and a large number of ghost hunters/occult detectives.psychics are fakes,or hobbyists who have lives and day jobs and often come up empty. once sat on a bench during a ghost hunt to see what would happen--i knew the place wasn't haunted (some people can sense these things though I have been out f the loop lately--but nobody was gonna listen to a sixteen year old goth from the ghetto?

far as the national socialist party,it was largely attribute dto the falout of WW1 and the taxing stipulations put on Germany afterwards.The people were desperate and Eugenics and anto-semitism was already a thing,pre-hitler.Been around since colonialism and was prevalent during slavery.Was use dto justify oppression.

on a fun note,I bet conjob just had to show his blonde haired ,blue eyes self and and say Heil Hitler; casta few stealth spells and got in.

also--these guys ain't got shit on HYDRA ....I'll just let that simmer

oh lord,who beleives this??! As a black person ,a black american ,i can tell you the origins of hip hop were mostly in philadelphia PA ,and New York--and had Jamaican influence believe it or not.Puerto Ricans were in on it too .This started in the late 70's-early 80's...rap was around before hip hop andthe two are NOT synonymous--case in point Lauryn Hill and Mary J. Blige who often sing to hip hop songs,and Beyonce back in her early days (this shit she does now is a travesty.She is talented but...she use to be better)not to mention harmonizing which was a thong with Nate Dog and some others back in the day (the 90's--u guys probably don't even know wtf i'm talkin; bout').In the 80's we had groups like African Bombata who were electronic-hip hop and were awesome,then we had Beastie Boys and Run DMC with rock/hip hop crossovers and rap metal is a thing....and that's mostly white people.

so...strange old white dudes in skirts..that's funny.

for the record,rappers and black people in general do a lot of spoofing and stealth trolling to white people,especially with the illumani thing...good luck trynna figure out what's real and what's not.

that we will.

it's depressing really.i'm guilty of being just a batman reader,that and i do read suicide squad (best depictions of harley quinn in the verse to me along with the fact that it's a bit more down to earth than alot of the other tittles...incidently batman too.another reason i do hellblazer.) I do think it's odd that they keep picking up johnny and dropping the ball with him.